Well, at the "cost" of CAF, 5cm movement and reroll, you get Infiltration
and twice range of weapons. Even with a decrease of morale, our playtesting
has convinced me it is worth it.
We might not agree on this one so it should perhaps be decided by a poll?
Eivind
-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Farr� Benet [mailto:cibernyam_at_...]
Sent: 20. juni 2003 13:13
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] On Shortbeards
Hi,
But at 150 points a detachment they cost exactly the same as berserkers!
only that they got less movement, less CAF, no reroll and less morale! Why
would anybody purchase shortbeards if you got an equivalent troop with far
better stats for the same price? I think that they should cost 100 points,
but I wonder what result would give the formula. Please, take into acount
that they have Squat in their name but none of the usual squat features
(Reroll, morale or break point), plus they have really low stats, almost the
same as IG tacticals or Chaos cultists (only 1 point better in morale).
When you got tons of expendable troops, like IG/PDF you can waste them to
enemy fire as desired, but when you got ONE expendable unit, you should play
it really wisely, so in the end it isn't as expendable as it seemed at first
glance. I think that their strong point is that, seeming expendable, the
enemy will try to go for stronger units and always leave them as the shot to
spare when he doesn't have other available targets. Thus, they can do their
job quite silently. Probably they won't bring you many VP but that is right,
because they are a cheap unit.
Albert Farr� Benet
----- Original Message -----
From: Eivind Borgeteien
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
On the pointcost, I must disagree. It might sound a little expencive,
but then again Squat infantry should be expencive, and it should cost you
that extra VP if they break.
If you bring along your shortbeards you get some cheap infantry, but you
also weaken yourself in terms of breakpoint. 9 stands is 5 VPs, wict in
turn are the same as one objective point. So, if you field the shortbeards
you should play them wisely so that they dont break, and give you that extra
OP. That way, you would have to play them according to the fluff. They are
not cannonfodder, but valuable units not to be wasted!
Eivind
-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Farr� Benet [mailto:cibernyam_at_...]
Sent: 20. juni 2003 11:30
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
I checked it out. The cost for a detachment of warriors is 300 ponts
for 10 stands (including 1 hearthguard), berserkers cost 150 for 6 stands
(including 1 hearthguard). Shortbeards cannot have the same point cost as
berserkers or equivalent as warriors. And I don't think the point is
increasing the cost of warriors and berserkers.
Albert Farr� Benet
----- Original Message -----
From: Albert Farr� Benet
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
Hi,
well, I see there are two or three major points on this.
- Weapons: If you think that Lasguns are better, I've got no problem
with that. I changed it to make them a bit different from squat warriors.
- Infiltration: Most other scouts have it and though I don't have
the messages here, I think the last stats discussed in the list (long ago)
included the ability. It's true they don't have the guts to fight as adult
Squats, but still they've got the pride of youthness (that sounds a bit...)
so I think they would rush forward and take and hold the closest free
terrain/cover for the others troops to take firing positions. Don't expect
them to go much further than that. It's nolt their work. With enemy in sight
their task is over. But if you don't like Squats to have any unit with
infiltration it's ok. Still I think this does not make a big change.
- Point cost: Here I completely disagree. 450 points is far too
much. If you take out CC reroll, their break point is as for normal armies
and they have low stats, how can it be so expensive? they cost the same as a
SM scout company!! and SM scouts have REALLY better stats (plus infiltration
ability). I don't have the cost for other Squat units, but take into account
that Squat infantry cost is quite high due to CC reroll. I lowered the cost
intentionally. I think that 450 may sound OK with the CC reroll (it's like
+1.5 CAF), but without reroll 450 points it's not correct at all, a fairer
price is 350. It was my fault to not copy tha sentence where reroll was
eliminated for shortbeards.
Take into account also, that shortbeards units are quite limited, so
probably you are not going to see Squats rushing with a lot of infantry.
Probably a company is the maximum you will see, and not always. This is just
a bit of cannon-fodder that has to be used wisely because this is your only
expendable unit. I think they can be very useful if well played (of course
in combination with other units, never alone) but they aren't a game
breaker. Absolutely. No, they don't make a difference on the Squat standard
tactics.
On the Slayer cult, it works a bit like the eldar Avatar: they are
quite out of control, so all your tactic is based on where you deploy them.
It's true that they have high CAF but they are pretty slow and also useless
defenders, since they won't defend any objective. Another very good unit
that it's too limited IMHO. But I think they add lot of flavour with their
limitation so it's quite OK with me.
Albert Farr� Benet
----- Original Message -----
From: NetEpic Webmaster
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
Again infiltration is a skil - so I wouldn't let them have that
either, I mean these are young (barely 81!!) squats who have let to learn
the finer art of war. At the same time, surely a young squat is better than
a regular guardsman? I mean he has been fighting a LOT longer.
Then again at this scale, I guess it doesn't matter.
Tom Webb
Webmaster of the EPICentre
http://www.netepic.org - Home of
Netepic, EPIC: Armageddon, VOID and Heresy
----- Original Message -----
From: nils.saugen_at_...
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
Lurke mode off.......
HI,
We've allowed Shortbeards to avoid a furious discussion with our
inhouse dwarf, who would surly hit us over the head with his great axe
untill we agreed anyway.... :)
Seriously, again I've not involved myself to much with the
latest revision, although I've kept my self sort of updated. I would urge
causion on issues such as these squat infantry changes. IMOH squats are one
of the most powerfull armies in the game, if played properly. However, one
of their weaknesses is the number of troops, troop movement and close combat
quality. With cheap units like the shortbeards and good close combat units
like slayer cults we take away one of the squat weaknesses. I think that
might be a bad idea. And while we have accepted the use of Shortbeards,
we've never accepted the use of Slayer Cults, but if my memory serves me
right they have been tested.
As for the issue at hand, I do not see why the shortbeards
should have the infiltration special ability!
Regards
Nils
-----Original Message-----
From: Eivind Borgeteien [mailto:eivind.borgeteien_at_...]
Sent: 19. juni 2003 19:44
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2 Infantry
Hi
My gaming group as on several ocations tested the shortbeards.
We have substituted their bolt pistols with lasguns and also taken away
their ability to reroll CC. (You have to grow more beard to do that, laddie!
:-) )
Their new prize would be 450 / 5VP pr company and 150 / 2VP
pr squadron.
I would suggest that we rather use this stats.
Eivind
SHORTBEARDS
The rising of a Squat army is not something of a few months.
The young squats must observe some years of military service before deciding
his role in the squat society. Since they are not enough cold-blooded to
face most battles, they usually play the role of explorers and scouts. Due
to the slow growth rate of the squat society, it's not usual to risk the
lives of the younger ones and only in desperate or (supposed) secure
situations are they used.
You can only field one Shortbeard Brotherhood (or a max of 3
squadrons) pr 3000 points.
Unit Name
Move
Save
CAF
Weapon
Range
Attack Dice
To hit roll
Target's save modifier
Notes
ShortBeards
10 cm
0
0
Bolt Pistols
25 cm
1
5+
0
Infiltration
Name
Contents
Break Point
Morale
Victory Points
Cost
Shortbeards Brotherhood (company)
1 Warlord
3 Shortbeards squadrons (1 hearthguard, 5 Shortbeards)
9
3
4
350
Shortbeard squadron (support)
1 Hearthguard, 5 Shortbeards
3
3
1
100
NOTE: I reduced the point cost since they had the same point
cost as SM scouts having clearly inferior stats.
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] On Shortbeards
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
In-Reply-To: <NNEGJGBHALMOLADKJJHEOEBKCAAA.eivind.borgeteien_at_...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
From: darius spano <dmanspano_at_...>
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84904480
X-Yahoo-Profile: dmanspano
Eivind,
Squats are my favorite army to play and I think we
need more units too. But since the Shortbeards are the
young Squats they wouldn't be seen on the battlefield
that often I would suggest only as a detachment squad
and not a company squad. Personally I would take away
the infiltration and bump the squad up to 8 units and
make the Break Point 6 cost 150 and VPs 2 to fit in
with the other Squat army cards. The Squats do
exploring. Why not make the Explorers the Infiltraters
or Scouts. Same as a Squat Warrior but 6 in a Squad BP
of 4 cost of 150 or 200 pts and gives up 2-3 VPs.
Again the Slayers I see as a Free Card and they must
be all be dead or the Squat loses VPs automatically.
Above notes 3 new units without adding too much. With
all the new vehicles introduced as optional in 4.1 I
think the Squats are well defined. Just getting all
those damn minis now. I like the Shortbeards but I
think they must be more scarce.
Darius
--- Eivind Borgeteien <eivind.borgeteien_at_...>
wrote:
> Well, at the "cost" of CAF, 5cm movement and
> reroll, you get Infiltration
> and twice range of weapons. Even with a decrease of
> morale, our playtesting
> has convinced me it is worth it.
>
> We might not agree on this one so it should perhaps
> be decided by a poll?
>
> Eivind
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Albert Farr� Benet
> [mailto:cibernyam_at_...]
> Sent: 20. juni 2003 13:13
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] On Shortbeards
>
>
> Hi,
>
> But at 150 points a detachment they cost exactly
> the same as berserkers!
> only that they got less movement, less CAF, no
> reroll and less morale! Why
> would anybody purchase shortbeards if you got an
> equivalent troop with far
> better stats for the same price? I think that they
> should cost 100 points,
> but I wonder what result would give the formula.
> Please, take into acount
> that they have Squat in their name but none of the
> usual squat features
> (Reroll, morale or break point), plus they have
> really low stats, almost the
> same as IG tacticals or Chaos cultists (only 1 point
> better in morale).
>
> When you got tons of expendable troops, like
> IG/PDF you can waste them to
> enemy fire as desired, but when you got ONE
> expendable unit, you should play
> it really wisely, so in the end it isn't as
> expendable as it seemed at first
> glance. I think that their strong point is that,
> seeming expendable, the
> enemy will try to go for stronger units and always
> leave them as the shot to
> spare when he doesn't have other available targets.
> Thus, they can do their
> job quite silently. Probably they won't bring you
> many VP but that is right,
> because they are a cheap unit.
>
> Albert Farr� Benet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eivind Borgeteien
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:46 PM
> Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2
> Infantry
>
>
> On the pointcost, I must disagree. It might
> sound a little expencive,
> but then again Squat infantry should be expencive,
> and it should cost you
> that extra VP if they break.
>
> If you bring along your shortbeards you get some
> cheap infantry, but you
> also weaken yourself in terms of breakpoint. 9
> stands is 5 VPs, wict in
> turn are the same as one objective point. So, if you
> field the shortbeards
> you should play them wisely so that they dont break,
> and give you that extra
> OP. That way, you would have to play them according
> to the fluff. They are
> not cannonfodder, but valuable units not to be
> wasted!
>
> Eivind
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Albert Farr� Benet
> [mailto:cibernyam_at_...]
> Sent: 20. juni 2003 11:30
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part 2
> Infantry
>
>
> I checked it out. The cost for a detachment of
> warriors is 300 ponts
> for 10 stands (including 1 hearthguard), berserkers
> cost 150 for 6 stands
> (including 1 hearthguard). Shortbeards cannot have
> the same point cost as
> berserkers or equivalent as warriors. And I don't
> think the point is
> increasing the cost of warriors and berserkers.
>
> Albert Farr� Benet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Albert Farr� Benet
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats part
> 2 Infantry
>
>
> Hi,
>
> well, I see there are two or three major
> points on this.
>
> - Weapons: If you think that Lasguns are
> better, I've got no problem
> with that. I changed it to make them a bit different
> from squat warriors.
>
> - Infiltration: Most other scouts have it
> and though I don't have
> the messages here, I think the last stats discussed
> in the list (long ago)
> included the ability. It's true they don't have the
> guts to fight as adult
> Squats, but still they've got the pride of youthness
> (that sounds a bit...)
> so I think they would rush forward and take and hold
> the closest free
> terrain/cover for the others troops to take firing
> positions. Don't expect
> them to go much further than that. It's nolt their
> work. With enemy in sight
> their task is over. But if you don't like Squats to
> have any unit with
> infiltration it's ok. Still I think this does not
> make a big change.
>
> - Point cost: Here I completely disagree.
> 450 points is far too
> much. If you take out CC reroll, their break point
> is as for normal armies
> and they have low stats, how can it be so expensive?
> they cost the same as a
> SM scout company!! and SM scouts have REALLY better
> stats (plus infiltration
> ability). I don't have the cost for other Squat
> units, but take into account
> that Squat infantry cost is quite high due to CC
> reroll. I lowered the cost
> intentionally. I think that 450 may sound OK with
> the CC reroll (it's like
> +1.5 CAF), but without reroll 450 points it's not
> correct at all, a fairer
> price is 350. It was my fault to not copy tha
> sentence where reroll was
> eliminated for shortbeards.
>
> Take into account also, that shortbeards
> units are quite limited, so
> probably you are not going to see Squats rushing
> with a lot of infantry.
> Probably a company is the maximum you will see, and
> not always. This is just
> a bit of cannon-fodder that has to be used wisely
> because this is your only
> expendable unit. I think they can be very useful if
> well played (of course
> in combination with other units, never alone) but
> they aren't a game
> breaker. Absolutely. No, they don't make a
> difference on the Squat standard
> tactics.
>
> On the Slayer cult, it works a bit like the
> eldar Avatar: they are
> quite out of control, so all your tactic is based on
> where you deploy them.
> It's true that they have high CAF but they are
> pretty slow and also useless
> defenders, since they won't defend any objective.
> Another very good unit
> that it's too limited IMHO. But I think they add lot
> of flavour with their
> limitation so it's quite OK with me.
>
> Albert Farr� Benet
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: NetEpic Webmaster
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [5.0] Squats
> part 2 Infantry
>
>
> Again infiltration is a skil - so I
> wouldn't let them have that
> either, I mean these are young (barely 81!!) squats
> who
=== message truncated ===
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Received on Sat Jun 21 2003 - 13:25:51 UTC