RE: [NetEpic ML] Chaos army book

From: EPICentre Webmaster <gambit_at_...>
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:18:33 +0100

The way I see it is as follows:

Khorne, god of war, and slaughter hates Tzeentch, god of manipulation
and magic

Slaanesh, god of fulfilment and desire hates Nurgle, god of despair and
disease.

They are both diametric, Khorne is not an opposite of Slaanesh, in fact
they even have some simularitys. Tzeench is not an opposite of Nurgle,
in fact they both believe in change, in one way or the other.

-----Original Message-----
From: Toma Diener [mailto:peyoterattle_at_...]
Sent: 03 April 2005 17:43
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Chaos army book



--- In netepic_at_yahoogroups.com, netepic_at_yahoogroups.com wrote:
> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> netepic group:
> Which of the Chaos Powers hate each other? These will be the
> two army lists that cannot ally with each other.
> o Khorne vs. Tzeentch and Slaanesh vs. Nurgle
> o Khorne vs. Slaanesh and Tzeentch vs. Nurgle
> o Khorne vs. Nurgle and Tzeentch vs. Slaanesh

I notice that several viable options have not been included, the most
obvious being "Eliminate the Animosities altogether" and "All Chaos
Powers have mutual Animosity"

> >>. I have used this animosity rule and it is sound.

My PDF reader tells me that it is:

"unable to extract the embedded font
'vadaaa+Copperplate_Gothic_BT06001954'

 which ends up meaning I simply cannot read any of the the new
additions (the new stuff yar worked so hard on is displayed as a
series of dots: pages and paragraphs of nothing but dots...).
Therefore: exactly which rule are we talking about? The one that
says two rival powers will attack each other (if in range) in
preference to other targets (animosity) or that two rivals cannot be
fielded together at all...?

I'm really torn here, in that I am a strong advocate of the Original
Fluff (see below) but, for Game Balance sake, I'd like to never have
to face a Khorne-Tzeentch alliance (or worse: be tempted to play
one!). Those two seem to have (IMO) an overwhelming battlefield
potential together...

Having said that: I feel strongly in either 1) retaining the original
animosities (literary reasons) or 2) eliminating the animosities
altogether (game reasons).

This is all extremely pertinent in that I am only now finishing up my
Tzeentchian army, soon to finish my Slaanesh force (Khorne's been done
for a while now)
 
> Jarreas Underwood wrote:
>Is this a rehash of an old discussion, or should I create a quick
poll and
settle the thing?

Oy vey, is this an old discussion!! (like 1000 years: no, really!)
It is, however, a discussion well worth reviewing on a couple of
levels, moreso Since the poll is already in place. Even though this
may seem to tread the line of Yar and Peter's admonition :
 "If you cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality, or cannot
conceive that others may do so, please
walk away and don?t approach the subject of tabletop wargaming again
until you grow up a bit."

 I strongly feel the need to expand on the original why's and
wherefores of the animosities, as I am likely the person who has
researched this the most: This discussion is in fact the primary
reason that brings me back to this game and milieu time and again; I
like the Fluff, and the underlying logic of it (culled from the
various and sundry sources that it is) appeals to my personal sense of
philosophical aesthetics.

 The Gods and their animosities are based originally on the
Medieval concepts of Alchemical Elements and correspondences, nothing
more, nothing less. Thus:

Fire (Khorne ) vs Water (Slaanesh )

Air (Tzeentch vs Earth (Gnurgle )

These original concepts provide the missing underlying framework upon
which everything else in the 40K milieu is based.
(It may help to understand that Air and Earth was traditionally
considered as much a dynamic Conflict as Fire and Water)

Additionally:

Air=Wands=Clubs= _Spirit_.............the Negation of =Tzeentch/Fear

Fire=Swords=Spades= _Intellect_ .................Negated=Khorne/Rage

Water=Cups=Hearts= _Compassion_ ...............Negated=Slaanesh/Lust

Earth=Pentangles=Diamonds=_Physical Existence_.Negated=Gnurgle/Despair

All the other fluff-y stuff is layered Over these core Ideas


(Although- a strong case can be made that

Reichian worldview = Khorne
Freudian worldview = Slaanesh
Jungian worldview = Tzeentch
Logotherapy worldview = Gnurgle

But, interesting as that diversion is, it doesn't have anything to do
with animosities and therefore is a different conversation...)

> >I've found in both the old and latest Warhammer Fantasy fluff that
the warrior god hates the magician god. Kinda makes sense - one revels
in the up close and personal, the other manipulates at a distance. I
can understand the motivation for Khorne vs Slaanesh distain (warrior
vs. hedonist), but Khorne vs. Tzeentch makes a lot more sense to me.

It wasn't originally that Khorne "Hates" Sorcery, but rather he has
_no use_ for it: to Him, its simply a waste of time. "We don't needs
us no Book-Larnin', we's jus' gon' Kill somtin'"

That is indeed the direction that the latest fluff has taken: I would
argue the reason being the newest crop of GW writers really don't
understand the reason the Background exists as it does. Originally,
Khorne and Tzeentch were Rivals (almost good-naturedly, if one can use
'good-natured' when describing malevolent hyper-dimensional beings
whose sole purpose is to unmake reality according to their personal
whim). Definitely not rivals in the sense of needing to anihilate the
others very existence. The underlying meta-game reason of Fire-Water
Air-Earth does provide such a rationale. Additionally, the 'in game'
rationale of the Rivalry over the shards of Khaine provides support
for the animosity of Khorne-Slaanesh. (It would have been nice if
they had an in-game reason for other rivalries, but they didn't
originally.)

> The basic philosophies are still dynamically opposed though.
> Honor v.s Indulgence.... Evolution v.s. Stagnation

 1) Honor has nothing to do with Khorne. He values Bloodshed
for its Own Sake. 'Honor' doesn't interfere with his Core Value, and
thus can be co-opted to promulgate his Agenda-

Similairly: 2) Evolution has nothing to do with Tzeentch. He values
Change for its Own Sake. 'Evolution' doesn't interfere with his Core
Value, and thus can be co-opted to promulgate -his- Agenda-

(We can extrapolate a Michael Moorcock derived Diety of Law that
represents these Values Say, I don't Know: The {Emperor = Honor} and
{the Laughing God = the goal of Evolution})

The (4) Chaos Powers really are best understood as 'Qlippoth': A shell
covering and obfuscating a Normative value: a 'Photo-Negative' of
their respective Element if you will...

Thus the Lawful "positive" aspect of Tzeentch's Fear would be
Self-Confidence.
The Lawful "positive" aspect of Khorne's Rage would be Righteous
Indignation.
The Lawful "positive" aspect of Slaanesh's Lust would be Compassion.
Lawful "positive" aspect of Gnurgle's Despair would be Passion.

 (Passion in this sense of the word meaning something akin to
Artisitic Enthusiasm not to be confused with a more Slaaneshi
definition of the word)

In all cases: 'Positive' and 'Negative' should be understood within
the Milieu as _NON_normative descriptors: akin to an electrical or
atomic charge:
positive and negative. Off or On. Decidedly _NOT_ 'Good' or 'Evil',
but simply existing as a function of Space-Time.

This also is reflected in lots of other 'real world' ideas: the four
obstructions and cures of Feng Shui for instance: but the medieval
stuff is the original basis. None of this has any definitive impact on
the Game, but (as I said) I thought people might want to review the
'why and wherefore' of the Animosities before voting.




Getting really off topic and tangental at this point:

Malaal was introduced to the Mythos in the WHFRP supplementary
campaign "Shadows Over trhe Empire" (IIRC). His Basic
Function/zeitgeist is to UnMake the -Other- _Chaos Powers_.
His Colours are Black & White (LOL) and his Sacred Number is 11.

Therefore, he is best understood in context by the Following Chart:

Slaanesh = { Water : Lust : 6 }
Gnurgle = { Earth : Despair : 7 }
Khorne = { Fire : Rage : 8 }
Tzeentch = { Air : Fear : 9 }
MaLaal = { Void : Nihilism : 11}

From (at least from one viewpoint) _Youngest_ to _Oldest_ Diety. (I
understand current WHF cosmology has Khorne as the Eldest, for reasons
that are ridiculously tangental and so I'll ommit them here)
Therefore, following the internal logic of this view of the cosmology
Cosmology, Malaal predates Tzeentch (although
Tzeentch ewxisted before Linear Time so 'predates' is the wrong
word....:P )

The Resulting Chaos Power Dynamic can thus can be Mapped using an
Inverted Pentagram: cool, huh?

Malaal's number is theorized to be best understood as : not "eleven"
but "one-one" as he was the Third Being to exist, and (as only a
Binary communication existed) one-one being Binary for "three"..
He is best represented in the 40K mythos by the Chaos Marine Army the
'Blood Saughterers'.

It's very silly, but Its Fun-
I'm not a Black Librarian fer Nothin' Bucko






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Received on Sun Apr 03 2005 - 18:18:33 UTC