RE: [Epic] Orks in various rules set

From: Miller, Chris <CMiller_at_...>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:31:39 -0600

> > --------> OK, what stat is different with a commander on board? If
> > it's the
> > max power fields thing, then this applies to greats and slashas in
> > SM/TL
> > also.
> > Looking at the Ork Summary Sheet, I count 10 different vehicles
> > including
> > flyers. Are you counting the commander/weirdboy ups as new types?
>
> 1) Commander on board has game effects (vs army design effects.)
> Makes
> all units with in 30 cm stubborn.
-------> Ok, true , but all gargants did this automatically in SM/TL
anyway, so we end up with the interesting effect where by removing an
ability as standard, but making it an upgradeable option, we end up with
2 different units under these criteria. I'd nominate the snapper vs
gutbuster option as 2 different types in SM/TL even if we ignore the
other weapon options, just because the snapper made a unit faster and a
close combat specialist, while a gutbuster made for a shooting
specialist, which is a fairly important difference during the game.
> 2) Psker and hero each have game effects
------> Agreed and this is actually an improvement with E40K IMHO.

> > >
> > >SM/TL with Warlord
> > >10 inf
> > >29 wagons
> > >4 gargants.
>
> > ---------> I count 14 infantry units leaving out the units with the
> > same stat lines. Ignoring "special rules" is a little misleading
> though,
> > as the special rules are what made some of these units different:
> Deathskulls
> > could take other clans proprietary cards, stormboyz didn't need to
> follow
> > the command rule making them extremely useful, madboyz had to roll
> on a
> > chart to see what they did (and were free so different points cost),
> etc. Just
> > because E40K doesn't have special rules I think you're discounting
> > their importance in SM/TL by saying there is no difference between 2
> units
> > when there is. And I might add that SM/TL with Warlords has as many
> > vehicles as E40K does vehicles _and_ infantry combined.
>
> Of the ones you list there, the only one that has the same stat line
> as
> another unit is the Death Skulls. There "special" effect does not
> effect game play, only army design. I therefor did not count them
> separate. Also I counted the guns as vehicles, which accounts for the
> 10 vs 14 effect there.
--------> OK so you did count the stormboyz & madboyz as different units
- OK
As for the Deathskulls and similar units, I'd argue that they still have
different rules - It's true that a deathskull boyz stand is the same as
an Evil Sunz Boyz stand, but a Deathskulls _Clan_ will look quite
different from an Evil Sunz _Clan_, which to me is enough of a
difference to call 'em different, as under E40K there's no difference
between them at all rules-wise.


> I never said that SM/TL/WL didn't have more types of Orks than E40K.
> I
> KNOW that the number was reduced.
---> Fair Enough
> I know that many of them (like say
> 25% or so) differed in trivial amount. Orks were my primary army in
> 2nd
> Ed. I was glad that TL came out with a rule that allowed you to have
> more than one of a given clan if you had taken all the possible clans
> with support cards. That allowed me, in theory, to use my full force.
> (not that I ever got a chance to do that and most of them were still
> unpainted (about 40% are painted to date))
---> Ok, but sometimes the trivial stuff is what makes the difference as
to why someone plays a given unit/clan/whatever or not. It does clean up
the rules and speed up the game, but for some players it's too high a
price. I go back and forth on it depending on which version I've played
last, but the bottom line is I can have a damn good time under either
one, and I can use most of my mini's under either one, and since they
play so differently it borders on 2 different games using the same
mini's, which is a good thing most of the time.

> A person on the list seems to think that my preferred version of Epic
> only has 1 race, with different paint jobs because that is all that is
> in the basic rules that comes in the box with the troops. If the
> supporters of 2nd Ed over all other version can do that, so can I.
>
-------> I know, but it has died down quite a bit from when E40K first
arrived to our shock and dismay. I wouldn't say that one is better than
the other, just that they do different things well. We can spend huge
amounts of time extoling the greatness of one edition over the other,
but if it comes up again, how about a "here's something my system does
that yours doesn't" rather than more of this "one does everything
better" chest-beating we've seen, and I don't mean just you Mr.
Looney...

(Just as an example, I'm playing around with a couple of scenarios based
around Ork Mega-Gargants. The one I'm working on for SM/TL would not
work for E40K because of system differences.BUT I'm working on another
one for E40K using similar ideas and some of the rules added in to E40K
which are not in SM/TL. They're both working well so far, but they are
different...)

Chris Miller
Received on Fri Feb 27 1998 - 18:31:39 UTC