Re: [Epic] Rants. Was SM/TL vs E40K unit costs

From: chadtaylor <chadtaylor_at_...>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:20:56 -0500

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> From: J. Michael Looney <mlooney_at_...>
> To: space-marine_at_...
> Subject: Re: [Epic] Rants. Was SM/TL vs E40K unit costs
> Date: Thursday, March 05, 1998 9:05 AM
>
> "Let me explain. No, there is too much, let me sum up."
>
> 1) I know that GW games are not a real refection of warfare. [even
> though E40K could be made into one, with out too much work, mainly
> dealing with weapon ranges]
> 2) I know the main reason for GW to exist is to sell figures, not rules.
> 3) I know there are game balance (and I use that term loosely) reasons
> to protect the "ghod like super grunts (GLSG)" from the rank and file.
> 4) All version of Warhammer, WH40K and Epic have GLSG, to one degree or
> another (in E40Ks the assault value of a SM Captain is twice that of a
> normal SM grunt, and E40K has the least amount of this).
> 5) My problem, and what started all of this is that, as Argo mentioned,
> when ever something gets a bit weird in the rules they quote "The Codex"
> as their cover story. This is good, this makes it seem like a "real"
> universe, with it's own sort of weird rules. I can live with this.
> Lots of SF games do this sort of thing.
> 6) Until we get to targeting a GLSG, then they fall back on realism.
> "Excuse me?" You have set up a universe in which officers were VERY
> distinct clothing. You have rules that cover laying down and hiding, it
> is not assumed to be the norm (as in, say Warzone or DSII), therefore
> you by Ghod CAN see the f_at_#$@#er.

Game design fudge, have done it in my own mini rules I created. You come
to a point in design when you want the game to run a certain way or at a
certain speed, or maybe the rules just force a certain situation. You
stand back and say 'but how can this be' and you come up with a 'reasonable
sounding' explination. It may not hold 100% against close examination, but
it wasn't intended to. You only wanted it to get past the 'huh' reaction
and go on with the game playing the way you wanted it to. Just as simple
as that. They didn't want the comanders to get stomped first so they said
'but how come they don't' and some guy said 'hey I know, we will just say
you can't pick them out' and the world went on turning and not to many
people were bothered (will, maybe a few more than that it seems ;) . That
is how it works, your real answer is that you shouldn't look too closely
into any rules system because you will find they fall apart on just this
type of problem (concept) some place/where. This is extra extra true with
'fictional' games with special 'fluff' built into the background.


> 7) In fact I do have trouble with any targeting rules. Last night I
> re-read the rules in current WH40K, and you are in fact supposed to do
> squad vs squad fire, where the figure that gets killed (assuming that
> all targets have the same armor, cover status, toughness, etc.) is
> determined at random. I don't have a problem with this, this is the
> same thing that my micro armor rules of choice "Command Decision" does.
> Granted in CD a stand is a platoon and in WH40K it's one troop, but from
> a game point a view, this is not that important. WH40K also states that
> if a GLSG is part of the squad he takes his chances with the squad. On
> the other hand it explicitly states that if he is behind the squad and
> not part of it he can not be targeted. I do have a problem with that
> rule. Space Marines are not the best example of why this is a problem
> to me, as a SM grunt IS a danger, however you have an Ork Warboss with a
> screen of grots out in front of him. Grots are next to useless. The
> Warboss, if allowed to get close, will eat you. Do you
> a) shot at the grots
> b) target the thing that next turn is going to wipe out your squad in
> hand to hand?
>
> And if you are going to tell me that I can't tell a 7' tall thing with
> flags sticking up 5 feet over his head from a herd of 4' tall things
> with ineffective weapons in front of him, well, you sir, have been in a
> closed room with an open pot of model glue to long.

You can't tell a 7' tall thing with flags sticking up 5 feet over his head
from a herd of 4' tall things with ineffective weapons in front of him!!
(and sniff sniff :)

Seriously though, this is a game mechanics problem. If they set it up (at
that level) so you could then things would bog down with 'what about that'
additions and complications. Just alot simpler to say 'you can't because'
for the whole lot and just let it go. Maybe by class if the class was
large (say vehicle v troopy), but at the above level it would just get
bothersome.

How about this: allow leaders to be targeted unless they look just like
their troops (use the same model, paint the same). This assumes of course
that you tell your op who is what of course. Or, you could just assign a
random stand as the leader and put a mark on the bottom of the stand and
mix him in. Your opponent chooses who he wants to hit, but doesn't know
what he is shooting at.

I say go with neither and just have the pretty figs out in play and let it
go with the current targeting rules (hell, at this point I don't even know
what the rules are - somebody should let me in on that secret before I make
a bigger fool of myself ;)

Chad

>
Received on Fri Mar 06 1998 - 06:20:56 UTC