did you know that netepic is linked from the epic section on the gw-homepage ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Ramos
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
Hi!
By the way what forum is Jervis using for this "developing"? After I hear from group members we can decide on what to do. The sheer playtesting potential this list can generate is staggering, that alone is an asset GW could use.
Note it doesn't change what Net Epic is or does. It just opens new doors and support to the game we love.
It would be nice to be on the official (fanatic) side for a bit.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Coleman" <warren.c_at_...>
To: <netepic_at_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
> Good comments Peter. I believe that the group has to contribute to the next
> phase of E40K, if not the project may die and I for one would not want that
> as I would love GW to produce some more miniatures for the races out there
> and introduce new races. To do this there needs to be growth in the
> interest of the game and it's player base. We can help to develop the game
> that |I believe the players want, but as Kenneth ahs stated NO GW bashing as
> they will turn a deaf ear to us on everything.
>
> Let us get together and help GW create a game which they will be wiling to
> support with future figure launches, then we can expand our gaming base and
> diversity in the Net Epic field.
>
> That's my thought any way..
>
> Warren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Ramos <primarch_at_...>
> To: <netepic_at_yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
>
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > Comments regarding Jervis post below.
> >
> >
> > > > Right then, the rest of this newsletter is made up of an editorial I
> wrote
> > > > for Epic Magazine 7 concerning the future of the Epic game system. It
> is
> > > > rather long (aren't all the thing I write?!?), but even if you don't
> play
> > > > Epic I think it will contain stuff you might find of interest. In
> > > particular
> > > > I'm keen to involve the players in the development process of the new
> game
> > > > system, rather than spring it upon them as a 'fait accompli', and on
> this
> > > > basis getting feedback and comments from players who don't play Epic
> at
> > > the
> > > > moment is almost as important as getting feedback from players that
> do.
> >
> > How do you get comments from players "who don't play epic at the moment"?
> Are they refering to epic players like us who don't play epic 40k or epic
> 40k players who for whatever reason don't play the game anymore? It's hard
> to get feedback from players who don't play epic 40k, because its very
> likely they are no longer are looking into information sources that would
> alert them that such a project is taking place. Lets face it, if Warren did
> not post this would we EVER had found out?
> >
> > > > Here then is the article. I'll be back in a couple of weeks with
> another,
> > > > rather wider ranging Fanatic newsletter, I promise, honest guv, have I
> > > ever
> > > > lied to you...
> > > >
> > > > EPIC EVOLUTION
> > > > By Jervis Johnson
> > > >
> > > > WHY A NEW EDITION?
> > > > I've said it before, but I'll say it again, Epic 40,000 is the game
> design
> > > I
> > > > am most proud to have worked on. I think it's an absolutely superb
> game;
> > > its
> > > > elegant mechanics create a tense and exciting game with plenty of
> > > manoeuvre
> > > > and action, and it rewards carefully thought out strategy & tactics
> better
> > > > than any other GW game, with the possible exception of Warmaster.
> Above
> > > all,
> > > > it is a game designed to be played, and I think it is telling that
> most of
> > > > the criticism the game has received has come from people who have
> never
> > > > played more than a game or two.
> >
> > The usualy party (and despicable) line. Saying that "it's the most proud
> design I have worked on" does not disguise its utter failure in the
> marketplace. If he doesn't want to admit he screwed up thats fine, but he
> shouldn't repeat this silly little line, because simply put, a untruth, no
> matter how much repeated. does not make it truth. Saying its a supeb game
> ad-nasuem doesn't make it one and if it was so superb why is he trying to
> make a new edition? Flawed logic.....
> >
> > The second is also typical. To infer that those who don't like the game or
> critize it are people that "never played more than a game or two" is not
> only false, but pretty insulting too. I myself played 12 test games and did
> not like the game at the end of that run. I'd like to dispell the silly
> notion that you need to play a game into the ground in order to find out
> whether you think its good. Different people learn in different ways. Some
> are more visual, some more abstract. None is "better" than the other. Some
> like to play a couple of games to get a "feel" for it. Some like me need
> only to read the rules a couple of times to get the "feel". The bottomline
> its a game and whether you like it or not is based on a host of subjective
> paramemeter. Its the hieght of arrogance to assume that one persons
> parameters are the ONLY ones that matter.
> > > >
> > > > None the less, love Epic as I do, I have come to think that what is
> really
> > > > needed to revitalise the game is a brand new edition of the rules.
> Above
> > > > all, I've come to think that the game needs a healthy injection of
> > > 'gritty'
> > > > new rules to help differentiate the units in the game and give Epic
> more
> > > > flavour.
> >
> > Really!? <slaps head> I cold have told you that 24hrs after I bought epic
> 40k <sarcasm>.
> >
> > > > Game Play vs. Flavour
> > > > Considering how proud I was of Epic, you can imagine my disappointment
> > > when
> > > > the game was released and proved much less successful than I had hoped
> or
> > > > imagined it would be. With hindsight it's possible to see that there
> were
> > > a
> > > > number of reasons for Epic's poor showing; the game and the miniatures
> > > were
> > > > poorly marketed, the release schedule was patchy, all support stopped
> in
> > > WD
> > > > soon after the games release, and so on. However, the most common
> > > complaint
> > > > raised by players that didn't like the game was that it was not
> detailed
> > > or
> > > > realistic enough (whatever realistic means in this context).
> >
> > Unsuccessful? Sheesh, what an understatement. Under epic 40k, epic for the
> FIRST time went out of print. If that wasn't telling him he made a terrible
> mistake then I dont know what would.
> >
> > Rather than
> > > > appreciating the elegant game mechanics and superb game play, these
> > > players
> > > > felt the game was abstract and lifeless - it simply failed to fire
> their
> > > > imagination and so they didn't want to play the game.
> > > > We've talked about this complaint quite a lot in the Studio since Epic
> > > came
> > > > out. As a designer I am interested in making games that are fun to
> play.
> > > For
> > > > this reason I worry a lot about over-complex rules and turgid game
> play.
> > > On
> > > > the other hand many players clearly like detailed rules with lots of
> > > chrome.
> > > > Previous editions of Epic (Adeptus Titanicus '1' and Space Marine) had
> > > tons
> > > > of special rules and detail, but suffered from turgid and
> unimaginative
> > > game
> > > > play as a result, while Epic 40,000 is superbly playable but at the
> cost
> > > of
> > > > very abstracted game mechanics. What interests me now is to try to
> create
> > > a
> > > > modified version of Epic which will balance off these conflicting
> > > interests
> > > > and create a game that works well for both groups, and as a result
> will
> > > make
> > > > Epic gaming once again a vital part of the 40K hobby. Later on in this
> > > > article I explain some of the methods I'm thinking about using to
> achieve
> > > > this.
> >
> > It seems FINALLY Mr. Jervis realizes what some of the problem is. Yes, it
> doesn't have character, yes, it doesn't have flavor and yes it failed to
> spark the imagination of the majority of epic gamers. Of course, this is all
> preceeded by the the statement that gamers didn't appreciate how elegant the
> system was. Here's a thought maybe it wasn't that elegant, maybe it's not as
> brillinat as he thought. Note it tales him nearly 5 years after the games
> release to realize things that most people on this list figured out by the
> first summer of the games release (some 3-6 months after release).
> >
> > I particularly laugh at the comment on "turgid and unimaginative" play of
> 2nd edition epic. Yeah, right, like you added those things to epic 40k,
> thats how come it did so good <sarcasm>.
> >
> > > >
> > > > However, my perception that Epic would benefit from slightly grittier
> and
> > > > more detailed game mechanics is not a compelling enough reason on its
> own
> > > > for doing a new edition of the game. So, before moving on to what I
> am
> > > > actually planning to do, here are the other reasons that made me
> decide
> > > that
> > > > we really had to do a new edition...
> > > >
> > > > Battlefleet Gothic, Miniature Ranges and Big Rocks!
> > > > Since Epic was released there has been another GW game that uses
> almost
> > > > identical game mechanics, but proved far, far more successful. I am,
> of
> > > > course, referring to Battlefleet Gothic (BFG for short). One of the
> most
> > > > interesting things for me about BFG's success is that I've seen hardly
> any
> > > > comments to the effect that it is too simple or abstract. Which begs
> the
> > > > question, why is this when BFG uses the same 'engine' as Epic?
> Although
> > > BFG
> > > > is slightly more detailed than Epic, I think the real reason for this
> > > > difference in the way the two games are perceived lies in the way that
> the
> > > > army lists and background are presented.
> > > >
> > > > In Epic the 'Armies Book' provides very little information on the
> units
> > > used
> > > > in the game other than their name and stat line, and most units are
> not
> > > > illustrated. In BFG, on the other hand, all of the units used in the
> game
> > > > are pictured and fully described. There is also much more information
> in
> > > BFG
> > > > about the background to the game, which is set during one campaign
> that is
> > > > described in meticulous detail. I think that this difference in
> approach
> > > > makes BFG 'feel' much realer, while Epic tends to make it feel more
> > > abstract
> > > > and game-like. This point of view has been strengthened by numerous
> > > > conversations I've had with players about Epic that goes along the
> lines
> > > of:
> > > >
> > > > Player: "The reason I don't like Epic is that all units feel the same.
> I
> > > > want my Leman Russ to feel like a Leman Russ, not just any old tank."
> > > >
> > > > Jervis: "But all the units are different. A Leman Russ has different
> rules
> > > > to a Land Raider or a Predator or a Rhino."
> > > >
> > > > Player: "Yeah, I know that, but they don't feel different."
> > > >
> > > > Tellingly, I've never had this conversation about BFG Escort ships,
> even
> > > > though they use almost exactly the same game mechanics as vehicles in
> > > Epic.
> > > > All of which leads me to conclude that one of the big failings for
> Epic
> > > was
> > > > in terms of its presentation, and that we need to do a new edition of
> Epic
> > > > in order to put this right. My current thinking is to take a leaf from
> the
> > > > BFG book (I know, bad pun) and focus on one campaign in great detail.
> The
> > > > campaign I've decided to concentrate on is the Armageddon campaign,
> partly
> > > > because it's an important part of the 40K background at the moment and
> so
> > > > lots of potential new Epic players will have heard about it, but
> mainly
> > > > because 'Epic 40,000 - Armageddon' is just about the sexiest title for
> a
> > > > game ever!
> >
> > I think this is probably the most insightful stuff he has to say. It goes
> to show what I have said all along that mechanics should be matched with the
> system portrayed. The little BFG I played was quite fun and the mechanics
> seemed quite at home. But it doesn't in epic. What is fun and neccessary to
> abstract in a starship game may not sit well in a grand scale combat game.
> He realizes this, perhaps he will finally "get it".
> >
> > > > By now some of you will be saying "Armageddon, hmmm, isn't that just
> > > between
> > > > the Imperium and the Orks? What about other armies?" Now I won't beat
> > > about
> > > > the bush on this - initially we will concentrate all of our attention
> on
> > > > Imperial and Ork armies, though we will publish 'Get you by' army
> lists
> > > for
> > > > players that already have other armies. This decision will have a big
> > > impact
> > > > on the model range that we will release to go along with the new
> edition
> > > of
> > > > the rules. Instead of simply putting all of the old models fully back
> into
> > > > production, we will only make the models for the Imperial and Ork
> armies
> > > > available, possibly supplemented by a small 'Chaos Space Marine
> Raiders'
> > > > range and an equally small 'Eldar Pirates' range.
> > > >
> > > > Doing this will give a tidy, focused range that we can build up over
> time
> > > to
> > > > cover all of the other races in the 40K galaxy, just as we have done
> with
> > > > BFG. More importantly, including all of the races and models from the
> last
> > > > edition would add at least an extra year to the production time for
> the
> > > new
> > > > edition, and frankly I'm just not willing to wait an extra year before
> my
> > > > favourite game is available again! None of which is going to save me
> from
> > > > the howls or protest from players whose armies aren't covered in Epic
> > > 40,000
> > > > Armageddon, but that's life as a game designer I suppose!
> >
> > Bad, Bad, Bad. One major reason epic 40k failed was due to a horrible
> release schedule where armies like chaos got shafted. If they do this again
> I dont see why the end effect will change. If I am a chaos or eldar player
> why would I buy a game that doesn't support fully my armies and I have NO
> guarantee it will survive release? Given GW track record I dont blame anyone
> who doesn't look twice at this title with this type of release schedule.
> > > >
> > > > And that leads in a round about way to my final reason for wanting to
> do a
> > > > new edition of Epic. Lets make no bones about it, Epic is currently
> the
> > > > least successful game in the specialist games range, and in order to
> > > revive
> > > > its fortunes I need to do something that is going to make players sit
> up
> > > and
> > > > pay attention, and I'm going to have to do it soon while there is
> still a
> > > > bit of life left in the game. I tend to look at new releases as rocks
> that
> > > > the designers lob into the 'hobby pool'. Simply keeping Epic around in
> its
> > > > current form is in effect throwing a pebble into the pool, the ripples
> > > from
> > > > which will only affect a small group of players. On the other hand
> > > bringing
> > > > out 'Epic 40,000 - Armageddon' will be the equivalent of throwing a
> > > boulder
> > > > in the pool, and hopefully the waves it creates will affect a lot more
> > > > people, and get them playing Epic scale games.
> >
> > AHHHH....the truth comes out...liberating isn't it. Say it
> again...again.... the truth shall set you free. After all the arrogance and
> "how cool my system is" talk before, the REAL reason for redoing epic comes
> out. Let's face it beyond the torch a precious such as this list carry, what
> else is out there? Fanatic you say? We'll they have a whole host of other
> PROFITABLE games by his own admissison. Even compared to other fanatic games
> this one gets pretty weak support. Well gentlemen you are now witnessing the
> last ditch effort for epic. Its finally here. If this one goes in the
> toilet, well...don't expect much. Not that you were getting much anyway. If
> you think it's hard to get what you want now imagine the scarcity if this
> new one "hits the fan".
> >
> > > > DESIGN GOALS & PRINCIPLES
> > > > Hopefully by now you are as convinced as I am that bringing out a new
> > > > edition of Epic makes a lot of sense. This begs the question, "What
> > > changes
> > > > will be made in the new edition?" As I said right at the beginning of
> this
> > > > long-winded diatribe, I love Epic 40,000 and I think it's a superb
> game.
> > > > Because of this, although the changes I have planned for the game will
> > > > affect the way it plays and the way it is presented, Epic's
> fundamental
> > > game
> > > > mechanics will remain the same. In other words, I have no real desire
> to
> > > > start again from scratch, or return to the rules found in the Space
> Marine
> > > > edition of Epic. Instead, what I want to do is add a big handful of
> 'grit'
> > > > to the game mechanics in the form of more detailed and less abstract
> rules
> > > > for vehicles and infantry. I'm also keen to address some aspects of
> modern
> > > > warfare that were not covered in the original game rules, such as the
> > > > importance of outflanking the enemy, the difficulties of co-ordinating
> > > > attacks by different formations, and so on. Last, but not least, I
> want to
> > > > include much more background information about the units in the game
> and
> > > the
> > > > Armageddon campaign itself.
> >
> > Strike two! The only thing to save epic IMO is precisely to start from
> scratch and get player input. Its the only way to get a good system at this
> point. If you build on a base that was a proven failure, the chances that a
> "grittier" system will deliver get slim.
> >
> > > > A Handful Of Grit...
> > > > As noted above, one thing I feel I have to do with the next edition
> game
> > > > rules is to make the rules for vehicles and infantry rather less
> abstract.
> > > > The primary way I plan to do this is to list the weapon systems
> carried on
> > > > each vehicle and give them their own stat lines. This is similar to
> the
> > > way
> > > > that Escort ships are dealt with in BFG, so I know that it won't slow
> the
> > > > game down too much. I'll take the Leman Russ as an example of what I
> plan
> > > to
> > > > do.
> > > >
> > > > Under the current rules the Leman Russ has the following stat line:
> > > >
> > > > Speed Range FP AS Armour
> > > > Leman Russ 25cm 45cm 3 1 6+
> > > >
> > > > What I propose is that this is changed to something like this:
> > > >
> > > > LEMAN RUSS
> > > >
> > > > Type Speed Armour Assault Firefight
> > > > Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 1 5
> > > >
> > > > Weapon Range Firepower
> > > > Battle Cannon 45cm 3FP/AT(5+)
> > > > Lascannon 30cm AT(6+)
> > > > Sponsons 20cm 2FP
> >
> > Hmm.. I got another idea, why don't change FP to attack dice and AT to
> save modifer....oh wait! thats 2nd edition epic..... please, give me a
> break. If your going to do that why not just go back to SM?TL?
> >
> > Can you say "reinventing the wheel"? A wheel is a wheel is a wheel. You
> can paint it, but its still a wheel.
> >
> > > > As you can see, the vehicle has gained a separate Firefight value,
> which
> > > is
> > > > used in firefights (doh!) or when the vehicle lends support in an
> assault.
> > > > More noticeably, the Leman Russ now has firepower values for each gun
> > > system
> > > > it carries. Some of these also list an 'AT' value. This is the
> equivalent
> > > of
> > > > an anti-tank shot in the current rules, but the To Hit number varies
> > > > depending on the weapon. The Leman Russ's Battle Cannon, for example,
> can
> > > > either fire with 3 Firepower, or take a single anti-tank shot that
> hits on
> > > a
> > > > 5+. One interesting side effect of splitting weapons up like this is
> that
> > > > the Leman Russ's Firepower now degrades with range, as some weapons
> have
> > > > longer ranges than others.
> > > >
> > > > Less obvious are the changes to the Leman Russ's armour values and the
> > > > addition of a 'Type' to the stat line. These two things are
> inter-linked,
> > > > and stem from I wanted to split all units into three broad types:
> > > infantry,
> > > > light vehicles and armoured vehicles. Infantry are only affected by
> > > > firepower, armoured vehicles are only affected by AT shots, while
> light
> > > > vehicles are affected by either (they get the worst of both worlds!).
> The
> > > > Leman Russ is an armoured vehicle, so it can only be affected by AT
> shots
> > > > (though Firepower will still allow you to place Blast markers). So, if
> the
> > > > Leman Russ shot at another Leman Russ, only its Battle Cannon and
> > > Lascannon
> > > > would have any affect.
> > > >
> > > > So far, so good, but surely an AT shot should have more chance of
> taking
> > > out
> > > > a Rhino than a Leman Russ, shouldn't it? Quite right it should, so
> > > armoured
> > > > vehicles now receive an amour saving throw, which they use instead of
> > > their
> > > > old Armour value. The Leman Russ is heavily armoured, so gets a save
> of 4+
> > > > vs. any successful AT shots, while a Rhino will get a lower save
> because
> > > it
> > > > has thinner armour. Note that the save replaces the old Armour value,
> as
> > > > armoured vehicles are not affected by Firepower so they no longer
> require
> > > > the Armour value used in Epic.
> >
> > Hehe, those of you that have read Heresy may already be laughing. Those
> who haven't give it a read through you'll find it interesting.
> >
> > This mechanic is good, very good in fact. Light vehicles, armor and
> infantry should be different from each other and interact differently.
> >
> > > >
> > > > I've been tinkering with this method of dealing with vehicles for a
> few
> > > > weeks now, and I must say that I rather like the effect it has on the
> > > game.
> > > > The vehicles 'feel' much realer, and although you have to roll
> separately
> > > > for attacks that use Firepower (which affects only infantry and light
> > > > vehicles in the target detachment) and attacks that use AT shots
> (which
> > > only
> > > > affects armoured vehicles), this has a negligible effect on playing
> time.
> > > It
> > > > also makes it much easier to differentiate between different types of
> > > > vehicles. At the end of this article you'll find a mock-up of the way
> I'm
> > > > thinking of presenting the rules and background for the Leman Russ
> > > > Demolisher in the new edition rulebook, and if you check out the stats
> for
> > > > the vehicle you'll find they are very different from the ordinary
> Leman
> > > Russ
> > > > stats above.
> >
> > Very sound, should have been present in the game at its original release.
> >
> > > > I don't plan to go into the same level of detail for infantry. Apart
> from
> > > > anything else if I did I'd have to start differentiating between all
> of
> > > the
> > > > possible squad level upgrades that infantry can carry in 40K, and I
> really
> > > > don't think that would be worth the effort. So infantry will stick
> with
> > > > having a single weapon stat line as they did in the past, and this
> will
> > > > represent a sort of 'average' effect of all of the different types of
> > > weapon
> > > > they could possibly carry. Here's an example for a Space Marine
> Tactical
> > > > squad.
> > > >
> > > > SPACE MARINE TACTICAL
> > > >
> > > > Type/Hits Speed Armour Assault
> > > > Firefight
> > > > Infantry 1 15cm 6+ 4 3
> > > >
> > > > Weapon Range Firepower
> > > > Small Arms 30cm .5FP/AT(7+)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Note that the squad only receives half a point of Firepower, and
> receives
> > > an
> > > > AT shot that requires a 7+ to hit (for non-Warhammer players that is a
> 6
> > > > followed by a 4+). Astute readers will have realised that this means
> that
> > > > Space Marine long range Firepower has been drastically reduced
> compared to
> > > > Epic (halved, in fact), while the Leman Russ's Firepower has gone up
> at
> > > > shorter ranges. This is not a whimsical change, but is based on some
> > > serious
> > > > number crunching comparing the effectiveness of different type of
> weapons
> > > on
> > > > different types of target under the 40K rules. What this number
> crunching
> > > > showed was that vehicles were under-gunned and under-armoured in Epic
> > > > compared to 40K, and this is something I'd like the new rules to
> reflect
> > > in
> > > > the new stats.
> > > >
> > > > The other thing I should point out here is that the Firepower of an
> > > infantry
> > > > unit only takes into account the special and heavy weapons carried by
> the
> > > > units. The effect of short-ranged weapons like bolters or lasguns are
> > > > included in the units Assault and Firefight values instead. One of the
> > > basic
> > > > design premises of Epic is that the Shooting phase represents long
> range
> > > > harassing fire, while an assault represents an all-out attack made
> with
> > > 'all
> > > > guns blazing'. Because of this, the casualty rate for an Epic Shooting
> > > phase
> > > > is based on what you'd expect from a single round of shooting in 40K,
> > > while
> > > > the casualties suffered in an assault will be close to those suffered
> in a
> > > > complete 40K game. Or to put it another way, if you imagine the
> Movement
> > > > and Shooting phases in Epic being the bits that happened just before a
> > > game
> > > > of 40K begins, then you won't go too far wrong!
> > > >
> > > > But I digress. The important thing here is that these changes greatly
> > > > increase the amount of detail (or rules chrome) for each unit, while
> at
> > > the
> > > > same time sticking broadly within the basic Epic 40,000 game system.
> I'm
> > > > really pleased with the way the changes work, but I'd value feedback
> to
> > > know
> > > > what you think about the game heading in this direction.
> >
> > Interesting. Funny to see many Heresy Concepts being used. Hoepfully they
> will be impleted well.
> >
> > > > A Sprinkling Of New Rules
> > > > When I started designing Epic back in 1995-6 I wanted it to reflect
> what I
> > > > considered to be some important aspects of modern combined arms
> warfare.
> > > > Like almost all GW's design team, I'm an avid reader of military
> history,
> > > > and what I wanted Epic to do was reflect some of the things I'd read
> about
> > > > but which weren't really covered in the previous edition of the game.
> In
> > > > particular, I wanted Epic to show the suppressive effect of fire,
> which
> > > > basically means that shooting at people is just as much about getting
> them
> > > > to put their heads down as it is about killing them. This is where the
> > > idea
> > > > for the Blast markers came from. I also wanted the game to force the
> > > players
> > > > to make quick decisions and constantly have to update their plans.
> This is
> > > > the reason for the high movement rates in the game and the dramatic
> > > effects
> > > > of assaults and close combat, which often means that a player will
> find
> > > > himself having to change and modify his battleplan every turn to
> reflect
> > > the
> > > > changing nature of the situation of the battlefield.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, since Epic was published I've carried on reading my military
> > > history
> > > > books and thinking about how best to represent the things I've read
> about
> > > in
> > > > the wargames I play. Over that time there are two things that I've
> come to
> > > > think aren't reflected at all well in Epic. These are the importance
> of
> > > the
> > > > flank attack, and the ability of better-trained troops to seize the
> > > > initiative and dictate the flow of a battle.
> >
> > Very insightful thoughts. These were also things very present in our minds
> when we made Heresy. I am not sure if they can be implemented on top of the
> e40k system, but we'll see.
> >
> > > > Outflanking An Opponent
> > > > Outflanking an opponent, or to use modern parlance, achieving a
> position
> > > > where you can enfilade an opponent, is a tactic as old as the hills
> but
> > > > still vitally important to this day, and which (I am sure) will still
> be
> > > > important well into the future. Because of this good commanders will
> > > strive
> > > > to outflank an opposing force if they can when attacking, and to
> protect
> > > > their own flanks from enemy attack when on the defence. The more I've
> read
> > > > about it, the more I've come to feel that this is really something
> that
> > > Epic
> > > > commanders need to be worrying about as well.
> > > >
> > > > The problem is defining when an Epic detachment has been outflanked,
> > > > considering that the detachment can be set up with pretty much any
> facing.
> > > > For quite a while I couldn't figure a way round this, at least not
> without
> > > > adding in armour facings and fire arcs for weapons, and that was
> something
> > > I
> > > > simply wasn't willing to do (waaay too complicated and boring). Still,
> the
> > > > problem remained in the back of my mind until I read some material
> > > > describing the 'axis of attack' of a formation in a battle. What the
> axis
> > > of
> > > > attack refers to is the direction a unit will attack, or the direction
> it
> > > is
> > > > expecting an attack to come from when on the defensive. "Hmmmm!" I
> > > thought,
> > > > "If I say that a detachment's HQ defines the formation's axis of
> attack,
> > > > then I'll be able to write rules for outflanking it." The idea is
> rather
> > > > simple (a good thing if you ask me!), and boils down to the following:
> In
> > > > order for a detachment to shoot or assault, then at least half the
> units
> > > > from the enemy detachment(s) it will engage must be in the front arc
> > > (front
> > > > 180�) of the detachment HQ. More importantly, enemy detachments that
> lie
> > > > completely outside the HQ's front arc achieve enfilade and cause
> double
> > > the
> > > > normal number of blast markers. Armoured vehicles lose their saving
> throw
> > > > against AT shots from detachments that have enfiladed them.
> > > >
> > > > <There's a diagram in the article, but unfortunately I can't include
> it
> > > > here!>
> > > >
> > > > The tactical implications of this fairly simple rules change are
> immense.
> > > > For a start it encourages you to keep HQ's sensibly at the back of a
> > > > detachment. It also means you really need to try and cover the flanks
> of
> > > an
> > > > attacking formation, because if it goes in 'straight up the middle' it
> > > will
> > > > probably get outflanked. Thirdly, it gives a big payback for the
> player
> > > that
> > > > manages to outflank an enemy force. I for one can't wait to try it out
> > > > properly in some games!
> >
> > Pretty darn slick! Perhaps one of the ideas I like the most and it brings
> some command control factor to the battlefield. I think this one will fit
> well in the epic 40k system as it stands.
> >
> > > > Seizing The Initiative
> > > > The other thing I'd like to see reflected in Epic is the ability of
> > > > well-trained troops to seize and (more importantly) hold on to the
> > > > initiative during a battle. Epic already covers this to some extent
> with
> > > the
> > > > initiative rules, but I would like to give it rather more prominence.
> As
> > > it
> > > > happens, Pete Haines of the 40K development team (and a big fan of
> Epic)
> > > has
> > > > been thinking along similar lines, the more so after playing quite a
> lot
> > > of
> > > > Warmaster recently, and he forwarded me some rules he's been working
> on
> > > for
> > > > incorporating ideas from Warmaster into Epic. On the basis that
> artists
> > > > steal (while amateurs only copy) I've nicked the ideas I liked from
> Pete's
> > > > proposal and added them to some ideas of my own to come up with some
> > > > modifications to the rules for initiative, the sequence of play and
> > > special
> > > > orders. Unfortunately, there isn't space to write the rules in full,
> but
> > > I
> > > > can give an outline of how they work.
> >
> > This is also a good idea, but he could put in some game controls, since
> armies with real good training, with some average luck can trounce armies
> with low training. I'd introduce a penalty for beyond a certain number of
> units activate that could also be army dependent. For example a higher
> trained army like space marine can activate extra units at no penalty until
> reaching the 3rd or 4th unit after which checks are made at -1 and the
> penalty gets larger after a higher amount activated. Less trained armies
> like orks may have problems activating more units beyond one or two. The
> systme would autoregulate itself better this way.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Basically, what I propose is to combine the Movement and Shooting
> phases
> > > > into a single 'Action' phase. In the Action phase the initiative can
> pass
> > > > from side to side. The player with the highest strategy rating goes
> first
> > > by
> > > > picking a detachment and carrying out an action with it
> > > > (move/assault/march/overwatch). Having carried out an action the
> player
> > > has
> > > > a choice. He can either relinquish the initiative or try to retain it.
> To
> > > > retain the initiative the player must nominate a new detachment and
> then
> > > > make an Initiative test for it by rolling a D6 (see the box below for
> some
> > > > example Initiative values). If the test is passed then the initiative
> is
> > > > retained and the player may carry out an action with the nominated
> > > > formation. If the test fails (or the player voluntarily gives up the
> > > > initiative) then the initiative passes to the other player, who must
> then
> > > > activate a detachment. Once all formations have taken an action the
> phase
> > > > ends.
> > > >
> > > > Note that when you get the initiative you must activate a detachment,
> you
> > > > can't pass immediately. If a player has no detachments left to
> activate
> > > the
> > > > opposing player keeps the initiative for the rest of the phase, and
> must
> > > > keep on activating units until all have had an action. Also note that
> > > > failing an Initiative test doesn't stop a formation from getting an
> action
> > > > later in the same turn, it just delays things and gives the opponent a
> > > > chance to interfere. Finally, note that a detachment may only be
> activated
> > > > once per Action phase.
> > > >
> > > > So, once you have the initiative you may pick a unit and take an
> action
> > > with
> > > > it. As already noted, the Shooting and Movement phases have been
> combined
> > > > into one phase, which means that an action allows a unit to move and
> > > shoot.
> > > > See the box below for descriptions of the actions a detachment can
> carry
> > > > out.
> > > > The other important thing to note about actions is that detachments
> which
> > > > choose assault orders make any charge moves in the Action phase, not
> in
> > > the
> > > > Assault phase. Detachments that have been assaulted can take an
> action,
> > > but
> > > > units from the detachment that have been engaged (i.e., are in base
> > > contact
> > > > with the enemy) won't be allowed to move. This means that a detachment
> > > that
> > > > has been assaulted will need to pick assault orders itself if it wants
> to
> > > > move units up to join in the fight. In the Assault phase you simply
> > > resolve
> > > > all assaults and firefights resulting from the actions carried out in
> the
> > > > Action phase. The player with the higher strategy rating picks one
> > > assault,
> > > > then resolves it. Then the other player picks an assault, and so on.
> Once
> > > > all assaults have been resolved, move onto firefights. The player with
> the
> > > > higher strategy rating picks one firefight, then resolves it. Then the
> > > other
> > > > player picks an assault, and so on.
> > > >
> > > > Now, I have to admit that the new initiative system is a more rules
> heavy
> > > > and fundamental change than the outflanking rule, but I'm looking
> forward
> > > to
> > > > trying it out equally as much. What I find most intriguing about it is
> the
> > > > decisions it will force on players as to which units to activate next,
> and
> > > > what to get them to do. Do I pull back with this detachment before it
> gets
> > > > tied up by an assault? Or should I fire on that detachment while it's
> > > still
> > > > in range, etc, etc, etc. It should provide players with a real
> challenge -
> > > I
> > > > just hope it doesn't slow the game down too much as a result.
> > > >
> > > > Epic 40,000 Armageddon Actions
> > > >
> > > > Space Marines Initiative = 2+
> > > > Imperial Guard Initiative = 3+
> > > > Ork Initiative = 4+ unless formation will assault, in which case
> > > > automatically keeps the initiative.
> > > >
> > > > Detachments with Blast markers get a -1 modifier, or a -2 modifier if
> it
> > > has
> > > > more Blast markers than units.
> > > >
> > > > Move: Make a normal move and then shoot.
> > > > Assault: Make a double move and then shoot at half effect. Formations
> may
> > > > enter close combat (move into base contact) without being snap-fired
> upon.
> > > > Note that units in close combat may shoot and be shot at and that the
> unit
> > > > no longer has to charge the enemy - assault moves can be used
> > > 'defensively'.
> > > >
> > > > March: Make a triple move, but no shooting and enemy attacks use the
> march
> > > > column of the Firepower table.
> > > > Overwatch: Move up to 5cm and shoot, re-rolling misses.
> > > > Retreat: This is the only action that may be chosen by broken
> detachments.
> > > > Move 20cm, ending more than 15cm from enemy. May not shoot.
> >
> > Hehe, pure Heresy. I think moving to a action based instead of purely
> phase based game is a real good idea. It eliminates a lot of the headaches
> the phase based system has and stuff like overwatch works a lot better too.
> I think the last three ideas are very good and will enchance the game a lot,
> although I have my reservations if they will fit with the core e40k
> mechanic. Its a shame they dont start from scratch to better do justice to
> these fine ideas.
> >
> > Of course remember most of them are in Heresy anyway <wink, wink>
> >
> >
> > Now these are some questions for a our list members:
> >
> > 1. Should this group get involved with this project?
> > 2. How should we forward any feedback? As a group? Individually?
> >
> > Of course this will all depend how real is the "contribution from players
> is". For now its watch and wait, but I'd apprecaite views on all this.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
>
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>
>
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Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:02:14 -0000
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here is the link :
http://www.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/epic40k/el_epi=
cres.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Ramos
To: netepic=
_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:38 AM
Subject: Re:=
[NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
Hi!
By the way =
what forum is Jervis using for this "developing"? After I hear from group m=
embers we can decide on what to do. The sheer playtesting potential this li=
st can generate is staggering, that alone is an asset GW could use.
Note=
it doesn't change what Net Epic is or does. It just opens new doors and su=
pport to the game we love.
It would be nice to be on the official (fana=
tic) side for a bit.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "War=
ren Coleman" <warren.c_at_...>
To: <netepic_at_yahoogroups.com>
S=
ent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JA=
NUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
> Good comments Peter. I believe that=
the group has to contribute to the next
> phase of E40K, if not the proj=
ect may die and I for one would not want that
> as I would love GW to pro=
duce some more miniatures for the races out there
> and introduce new rac=
es. To do this there needs to be growth in the
> interest of the game an=
d it's player base. We can help to develop the game
> that |I believe th=
e players want, but as Kenneth ahs stated NO GW bashing as
> they will tu=
rn a deaf ear to us on everything.
>
> Let us get together and help GW=
create a game which they will be wiling to
> support with future figure =
launches, then we can expand our gaming base and
> diversity in the Net E=
pic field.
>
> That's my thought any way..
>
> Warren
> ----- O=
riginal Message -----
> From: Peter Ramos <primarch_at_...>
> To: <=
netepic_at_yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:35 PM
> =
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER (late!)
>
>
=
> > Hi!
> >
> > Comments regarding Jervis post below.
> >
> >
>=
> > > Right then, the rest of this newsletter is made up of an editorial I=
> wrote
> > > > for Epic Magazine 7 concerning the future of the Epic =
game system. It
> is
> > > > rather long (aren't all the thing I write?=
!?), but even if you don't
> play
> > > > Epic I think it will contain =
stuff you might find of interest. In
> > > particular
> > > > I'm keen =
to involve the players in the development process of the new
> game
> >=
> > system, rather than spring it upon them as a 'fait accompli', and on
=
> this
> > > > basis getting feedback and comments from players who don'=
t play Epic
> at
> > > the
> > > > moment is almost as important as g=
etting feedback from players that
> do.
> >
> > How do you get commen=
ts from players "who don't play epic at the moment"?
> Are they refering =
to epic players like us who don't play epic 40k or epic
> 40k players who=
for whatever reason don't play the game anymore? It's hard
> to get feed=
back from players who don't play epic 40k, because its very
> likely they=
are no longer are looking into information sources that would
> alert th=
em that such a project is taking place. Lets face it, if Warren did
> not=
post this would we EVER had found out?
> >
> > > > Here then is the ar=
ticle. I'll be back in a couple of weeks with
> another,
> > > > rather=
wider ranging Fanatic newsletter, I promise, honest guv, have I
> > > ev=
er
> > > > lied to you...
> > > >
> > > > EPIC EVOLUTION
> > > > By=
Jervis Johnson
> > > >
> > > > WHY A NEW EDITION?
> > > > I've said =
it before, but I'll say it again, Epic 40,000 is the game
> design
> > =
> I
> > > > am most proud to have worked on. I think it's an absolutely s=
uperb
> game;
> > > its
> > > > elegant mechanics create a tense and =
exciting game with plenty of
> > > manoeuvre
> > > > and action, and it=
rewards carefully thought out strategy & tactics
> better
> > > > than=
any other GW game, with the possible exception of Warmaster.
> Above
>=
> > all,
> > > > it is a game designed to be played, and I think it is t=
elling that
> most of
> > > > the criticism the game has received has c=
ome from people who have
> never
> > > > played more than a game or two=
.
> >
> > The usualy party (and despicable) line. Saying that "it's the=
most proud
> design I have worked on" does not disguise its utter failur=
e in the
> marketplace. If he doesn't want to admit he screwed up thats f=
ine, but he
> shouldn't repeat this silly little line, because simply put=
, a untruth, no
> matter how much repeated. does not make it truth. Sayin=
g its a supeb game
> ad-nasuem doesn't make it one and if it was so super=
b why is he trying to
> make a new edition? Flawed logic.....
> >
> >=
The second is also typical. To infer that those who don't like the game or=
> critize it are people that "never played more than a game or two" is n=
ot
> only false, but pretty insulting too. I myself played 12 test games =
and did
> not like the game at the end of that run. I'd like to dispell t=
he silly
> notion that you need to play a game into the ground in order t=
o find out
> whether you think its good. Different people learn in differ=
ent ways. Some
> are more visual, some more abstract. None is "better" th=
an the other. Some
> like to play a couple of games to get a "feel" for i=
t. Some like me need
> only to read the rules a couple of times to get th=
e "feel". The bottomline
> its a game and whether you like it or not is b=
ased on a host of subjective
> paramemeter. Its the hieght of arrogance t=
o assume that one persons
> parameters are the ONLY ones that matter.
>=
> > >
> > > > None the less, love Epic as I do, I have come to think tha=
t what is
> really
> > > > needed to revitalise the game is a brand new=
edition of the rules.
> Above
> > > > all, I've come to think that the=
game needs a healthy injection of
> > > 'gritty'
> > > > new rules to =
help differentiate the units in the game and give Epic
> more
> > > > f=
lavour.
> >
> > Really!? <slaps head> I cold have told you that 24hrs a=
fter I bought epic
> 40k <sarcasm>.
> >
> > > > Game Play vs. Flavour=
> > > > Considering how proud I was of Epic, you can imagine my disappoi=
ntment
> > > when
> > > > the game was released and proved much less su=
ccessful than I had hoped
> or
> > > > imagined it would be. With hinds=
ight it's possible to see that there
> were
> > > a
> > > > number of=
reasons for Epic's poor showing; the game and the miniatures
> > > were
=
> > > > poorly marketed, the release schedule was patchy, all support sto=
pped
> in
> > > WD
> > > > soon after the games release, and so on. H=
owever, the most common
> > > complaint
> > > > raised by players that =
didn't like the game was that it was not
> detailed
> > > or
> > > > =
realistic enough (whatever realistic means in this context).
> >
> > Un=
successful? Sheesh, what an understatement. Under epic 40k, epic for the
=
> FIRST time went out of print. If that wasn't telling him he made a terrib=
le
> mistake then I dont know what would.
> >
> > Rather than
> > =
> > appreciating the elegant game mechanics and superb game play, these
>=
> > players
> > > > felt the game was abstract and lifeless - it simply =
failed to fire
> their
> > > > imagination and so they didn't want to p=
lay the game.
> > > > We've talked about this complaint quite a lot in th=
e Studio since Epic
> > > came
> > > > out. As a designer I am interest=
ed in making games that are fun to
> play.
> > > For
> > > > this rea=
son I worry a lot about over-complex rules and turgid game
> play.
> > =
> On
> > > > the other hand many players clearly like detailed rules with=
lots of
> > > chrome.
> > > > Previous editions of Epic (Adeptus Titan=
icus '1' and Space Marine) had
> > > tons
> > > > of special rules and =
detail, but suffered from turgid and
> unimaginative
> > > game
> > >=
> play as a result, while Epic 40,000 is superbly playable but at the
> =
cost
> > > of
> > > > very abstracted game mechanics. What interests me=
now is to try to
> create
> > > a
> > > > modified version of Epic w=
hich will balance off these conflicting
> > > interests
> > > > and cre=
ate a game that works well for both groups, and as a result
> will
> > =
> make
> > > > Epic gaming once again a vital part of the 40K hobby. Late=
r on in this
> > > > article I explain some of the methods I'm thinking a=
bout using to
> achieve
> > > > this.
> >
> > It seems FINALLY Mr. =
Jervis realizes what some of the problem is. Yes, it
> doesn't have chara=
cter, yes, it doesn't have flavor and yes it failed to
> spark the imagin=
ation of the majority of epic gamers. Of course, this is all
> preceeded =
by the the statement that gamers didn't appreciate how elegant the
> syst=
em was. Here's a thought maybe it wasn't that elegant, maybe it's not as
=
> brillinat as he thought. Note it tales him nearly 5 years after the games=
> release to realize things that most people on this list figured out b=
y the
> first summer of the games release (some 3-6 months after release)=
.
> >
> > I particularly laugh at the comment on "turgid and unimaginat=
ive" play of
> 2nd edition epic. Yeah, right, like you added those things=
to epic 40k,
> thats how come it did so good <sarcasm>.
> >
> > > >
=
> > > > However, my perception that Epic would benefit from slightly grit=
tier
> and
> > > > more detailed game mechanics is not a compelling eno=
ugh reason on its
> own
> > > > for doing a new edition of the game. S=
o, before moving on to what I
> am
> > > > actually planning to do, her=
e are the other reasons that made me
> decide
> > > that
> > > > we r=
eally had to do a new edition...
> > > >
> > > > Battlefleet Gothic, Mi=
niature Ranges and Big Rocks!
> > > > Since Epic was released there has b=
een another GW game that uses
> almost
> > > > identical game mechanics=
, but proved far, far more successful. I am,
> of
> > > > course, refer=
ring to Battlefleet Gothic (BFG for short). One of the
> most
> > > > i=
nteresting things for me about BFG's success is that I've seen hardly
> a=
ny
> > > > comments to the effect that it is too simple or abstract. Whic=
h begs
> the
> > > > question, why is this when BFG uses the same 'engi=
ne' as Epic?
> Although
> > > BFG
> > > > is slightly more detailed t=
han Epic, I think the real reason for this
> > > > difference in the way =
the two games are perceived lies in the way that
> the
> > > > army lis=
ts and background are presented.
> > > >
> > > > In Epic the 'Armies Bo=
ok' provides very little information on the
> units
> > > used
> > > =
> in the game other than their name and stat line, and most units are
> n=
ot
> > > > illustrated. In BFG, on the other hand, all of the units used =
in the
> game
> > > > are pictured and fully described. There is also m=
uch more information
> in
> > > BFG
> > > > about the background to t=
he game, which is set during one campaign
> that is
> > > > described i=
n meticulous detail. I think that this difference in
> approach
> > > >=
makes BFG 'feel' much realer, while Epic tends to make it feel more
> > =
> abstract
> > > > and game-like. This point of view has been strengthene=
d by numerous
> > > > conversations I've had with players about Epic that=
goes along the
> lines
> > > of:
> > > >
> > > > Player: "The reas=
on I don't like Epic is that all units feel the same.
> I
> > > > want =
my Leman Russ to feel like a Leman Russ, not just any old tank."
> > > >
=
> > > > Jervis: "But all the units are different. A Leman Russ has differ=
ent
> rules
> > > > to a Land Raider or a Predator or a Rhino."
> > >=
>
> > > > Player: "Yeah, I know that, but they don't feel different."
=
> > > >
> > > > Tellingly, I've never had this conversation about BFG Esc=
ort ships,
> even
> > > > though they use almost exactly the same game =
mechanics as vehicles in
> > > Epic.
> > > > All of which leads me to c=
onclude that one of the big failings for
> Epic
> > > was
> > > > in =
terms of its presentation, and that we need to do a new edition of
> Epic=
> > > > in order to put this right. My current thinking is to take a lea=
f from
> the
> > > > BFG book (I know, bad pun) and focus on one campai=
gn in great detail.
> The
> > > > campaign I've decided to concentrate =
on is the Armageddon campaign,
> partly
> > > > because it's an importa=
nt part of the 40K background at the moment and
> so
> > > > lots of po=
tential new Epic players will have heard about it, but
> mainly
> > > >=
because 'Epic 40,000 - Armageddon' is just about the sexiest title for
>=
a
> > > > game ever!
> >
> > I think this is probably the most insig=
htful stuff he has to say. It goes
> to show what I have said all along t=
hat mechanics should be matched with the
> system portrayed. The little B=
FG I played was quite fun and the mechanics
> seemed quite at home. But i=
t doesn't in epic. What is fun and neccessary to
> abstract in a starship=
game may not sit well in a grand scale combat game.
> He realizes this, =
perhaps he will finally "get it".
> >
> > > > By now some of you will b=
e saying "Armageddon, hmmm, isn't that just
> > > between
> > > > the I=
mperium and the Orks? What about other armies?" Now I won't beat
> > > ab=
out
> > > > the bush on this - initially we will concentrate all of our a=
ttention
> on
> > > > Imperial and Ork armies, though we will publish '=
Get you by' army
> lists
> > > for
> > > > players that already have =
other armies. This decision will have a big
> > > impact
> > > > on the=
model range that we will release to go along with the new
> edition
> =
> > of
> > > > the rules. Instead of simply putting all of the old models=
fully back
> into
> > > > production, we will only make the models for=
the Imperial and Ork
> armies
> > > > available, possibly supplemented=
by a small 'Chaos Space Marine
> Raiders'
> > > > range and an equally=
small 'Eldar Pirates' range.
> > > >
> > > > Doing this will give a ti=
dy, focused range that we can build up over
> time
> > > to
> > > > c=
over all of the other races in the 40K galaxy, just as we have done
> wit=
h
> > > > BFG. More importantly, including all of the races and models fr=
om the
> last
> > > > edition would add at least an extra year to the p=
roduction time for
> the
> > > new
> > > > edition, and frankly I'm j=
ust not willing to wait an extra year before
> my
> > > > favourite gam=
e is available again! None of which is going to save me
> from
> > > > =
the howls or protest from players whose armies aren't covered in Epic
> >=
> 40,000
> > > > Armageddon, but that's life as a game designer I suppos=
e!
> >
> > Bad, Bad, Bad. One major reason epic 40k failed was due to a=
horrible
> release schedule where armies like chaos got shafted. If they=
do this again
> I dont see why the end effect will change. If I am a cha=
os or eldar player
> why would I buy a game that doesn't support fully my=
armies and I have NO
> guarantee it will survive release? Given GW track=
record I dont blame anyone
> who doesn't look twice at this title with t=
his type of release schedule.
> > > >
> > > > And that leads in a round=
about way to my final reason for wanting to
> do a
> > > > new edition=
of Epic. Lets make no bones about it, Epic is currently
> the
> > > > =
least successful game in the specialist games range, and in order to
> > =
> revive
> > > > its fortunes I need to do something that is going to mak=
e players sit
> up
> > > and
> > > > pay attention, and I'm going to =
have to do it soon while there is
> still a
> > > > bit of life left in=
the game. I tend to look at new releases as rocks
> that
> > > > the d=
esigners lob into the 'hobby pool'. Simply keeping Epic around in
> its
=
> > > > current form is in effect throwing a pebble into the pool, the rip=
ples
> > > from
> > > > which will only affect a small group of players=
. On the other hand
> > > bringing
> > > > out 'Epic 40,000 - Armageddo=
n' will be the equivalent of throwing a
> > > boulder
> > > > in the po=
ol, and hopefully the waves it creates will affect a lot more
> > > > peo=
ple, and get them playing Epic scale games.
> >
> > AHHHH....the truth =
comes out...liberating isn't it. Say it
> again...again.... the truth sha=
ll set you free. After all the arrogance and
> "how cool my system is" ta=
lk before, the REAL reason for redoing epic comes
> out. Let's face it be=
yond the torch a precious such as this list carry, what
> else is out the=
re? Fanatic you say? We'll they have a whole host of other
> PROFITABLE g=
ames by his own admissison. Even compared to other fanatic games
> this o=
ne gets pretty weak support. Well gentlemen you are now witnessing the
> =
last ditch effort for epic. Its finally here. If this one goes in the
> t=
oilet, well...don't expect much. Not that you were getting much anyway. If
=
> you think it's hard to get what you want now imagine the scarcity if th=
is
> new one "hits the fan".
> >
> > > > DESIGN GOALS & PRINCIPLES
=
> > > > Hopefully by now you are as convinced as I am that bringing out a n=
ew
> > > > edition of Epic makes a lot of sense. This begs the question, =
"What
> > > changes
> > > > will be made in the new edition?" As I said=
right at the beginning of
> this
> > > > long-winded diatribe, I love =
Epic 40,000 and I think it's a superb
> game.
> > > > Because of this, =
although the changes I have planned for the game will
> > > > affect the =
way it plays and the way it is presented, Epic's
> fundamental
> > > ga=
me
> > > > mechanics will remain the same. In other words, I have no real=
desire
> to
> > > > start again from scratch, or return to the rules f=
ound in the Space
> Marine
> > > > edition of Epic. Instead, what I wan=
t to do is add a big handful of
> 'grit'
> > > > to the game mechanics =
in the form of more detailed and less abstract
> rules
> > > > for vehi=
cles and infantry. I'm also keen to address some aspects of
> modern
> =
> > > warfare that were not covered in the original game rules, such as the=
> > > > importance of outflanking the enemy, the difficulties of co-ordi=
nating
> > > > attacks by different formations, and so on. Last, but not =
least, I
> want to
> > > > include much more background information abo=
ut the units in the game
> and
> > > the
> > > > Armageddon campaign =
itself.
> >
> > Strike two! The only thing to save epic IMO is precisel=
y to start from
> scratch and get player input. Its the only way to get a=
good system at this
> point. If you build on a base that was a proven fa=
ilure, the chances that a
> "grittier" system will deliver get slim.
> =
>
> > > > A Handful Of Grit...
> > > > As noted above, one thing I feel=
I have to do with the next edition
> game
> > > > rules is to make the=
rules for vehicles and infantry rather less
> abstract.
> > > > The pr=
imary way I plan to do this is to list the weapon systems
> carried on
=
> > > > each vehicle and give them their own stat lines. This is similar to=
> the
> > > way
> > > > that Escort ships are dealt with in BFG, so =
I know that it won't slow
> the
> > > > game down too much. I'll take t=
he Leman Russ as an example of what I
> plan
> > > to
> > > > do.
>=
> > >
> > > > Under the current rules the Leman Russ has the following s=
tat line:
> > > >
> > > > Speed Range FP AS Armour
> > > > Leman Russ=
25cm 45cm 3 1 6+
> > > >
> > > > What I propose is that this is change=
d to something like this:
> > > >
> > > > LEMAN RUSS
> > > >
> > > =
> Type Speed Armour Assault Firefight
> > > > Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 1 =
5
> > > >
> > > > Weapon Range Firepower
> > > > Battle Cannon 45cm 3=
FP/AT(5+)
> > > > Lascannon 30cm AT(6+)
> > > > Sponsons 20cm 2FP
> >=
> > Hmm.. I got another idea, why don't change FP to attack dice and AT =
to
> save modifer....oh wait! thats 2nd edition epic..... please, give me=
a
> break. If your going to do that why not just go back to SM?TL?
> >=
> > Can you say "reinventing the wheel"? A wheel is a wheel is a wheel. =
You
> can paint it, but its still a wheel.
> >
> > > > As you can see=
, the vehicle has gained a separate Firefight value,
> which
> > > is
=
> > > > used in firefights (doh!) or when the vehicle lends support in an
=
> assault.
> > > > More noticeably, the Leman Russ now has firepower va=
lues for each gun
> > > system
> > > > it carries. Some of these also l=
ist an 'AT' value. This is the
> equivalent
> > > of
> > > > an anti-=
tank shot in the current rules, but the To Hit number varies
> > > > depe=
nding on the weapon. The Leman Russ's Battle Cannon, for example,
> can
=
> > > > either fire with 3 Firepower, or take a single anti-tank shot that=
> hits on
> > > a
> > > > 5+. One interesting side effect of splitti=
ng weapons up like this is
> that
> > > > the Leman Russ's Firepower no=
w degrades with range, as some weapons
> have
> > > > longer ranges tha=
n others.
> > > >
> > > > Less obvious are the changes to the Leman Rus=
s's armour values and the
> > > > addition of a 'Type' to the stat line. =
These two things are
> inter-linked,
> > > > and stem from I wanted to =
split all units into three broad types:
> > > infantry,
> > > > light v=
ehicles and armoured vehicles. Infantry are only affected by
> > > > fire=
power, armoured vehicles are only affected by AT shots, while
> light
>=
> > > vehicles are affected by either (they get the worst of both worlds!)=
.
> The
> > > > Leman Russ is an armoured vehicle, so it can only be af=
fected by AT
> shots
> > > > (though Firepower will still allow you to =
place Blast markers). So, if
> the
> > > > Leman Russ shot at another L=
eman Russ, only its Battle Cannon and
> > > Lascannon
> > > > would hav=
e any affect.
> > > >
> > > > So far, so good, but surely an AT shot sh=
ould have more chance of
> taking
> > > out
> > > > a Rhino than a Le=
man Russ, shouldn't it? Quite right it should, so
> > > armoured
> > > =
> vehicles now receive an amour saving throw, which they use instead of
>=
> > their
> > > > old Armour value. The Leman Russ is heavily armoured, =
so gets a save
> of 4+
> > > > vs. any successful AT shots, while a Rhi=
no will get a lower save
> because
> > > it
> > > > has thinner armou=
r. Note that the save replaces the old Armour value,
> as
> > > > armou=
red vehicles are not affected by Firepower so they no longer
> require
=
> > > > the Armour value used in Epic.
> >
> > Hehe, those of you that =
have read Heresy may already be laughing. Those
> who haven't give it a r=
ead through you'll find it interesting.
> >
> > This mechanic is good, =
very good in fact. Light vehicles, armor and
> infantry should be differe=
nt from each other and interact differently.
> >
> > > >
> > > > I've=
been tinkering with this method of dealing with vehicles for a
> few
>=
> > > weeks now, and I must say that I rather like the effect it has on th=
e
> > > game.
> > > > The vehicles 'feel' much realer, and although you=
have to roll
> separately
> > > > for attacks that use Firepower (whic=
h affects only infantry and light
> > > > vehicles in the target detachme=
nt) and attacks that use AT shots
> (which
> > > only
> > > > affects=
armoured vehicles), this has a negligible effect on playing
> time.
> =
> > It
> > > > also makes it much easier to differentiate between differe=
nt types of
> > > > vehicles. At the end of this article you'll find a mo=
ck-up of the way
> I'm
> > > > thinking of presenting the rules and bac=
kground for the Leman Russ
> > > > Demolisher in the new edition rulebook=
, and if you check out the stats
> for
> > > > the vehicle you'll find =
they are very different from the ordinary
> Leman
> > > Russ
> > > > =
stats above.
> >
> > Very sound, should have been present in the game a=
t its original release.
> >
> > > > I don't plan to go into the same le=
vel of detail for infantry. Apart
> from
> > > > anything else if I did=
I'd have to start differentiating between all
> of
> > > the
> > > >=
possible squad level upgrades that infantry can carry in 40K, and I
> re=
ally
> > > > don't think that would be worth the effort. So infantry will=
stick
> with
> > > > having a single weapon stat line as they did in t=
he past, and this
> will
> > > > represent a sort of 'average' effect o=
f all of the different types of
> > > weapon
> > > > they could possibl=
y carry. Here's an example for a Space Marine
> Tactical
> > > > squad.=
> > > >
> > > > SPACE MARINE TACTICAL
> > > >
> > > > Type/Hits Sp=
eed Armour Assault
> > > > Firefight
> > > > Infantry 1 15cm 6+ 4 3
>=
> > >
> > > > Weapon Range Firepower
> > > > Small Arms 30cm .5FP/AT(7=
+)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Note that the squad only receives half a p=
oint of Firepower, and
> receives
> > > an
> > > > AT shot that requi=
res a 7+ to hit (for non-Warhammer players that is a
> 6
> > > > follow=
ed by a 4+). Astute readers will have realised that this means
> that
>=
> > > Space Marine long range Firepower has been drastically reduced
> c=
ompared to
> > > > Epic (halved, in fact), while the Leman Russ's Firepow=
er has gone up
> at
> > > > shorter ranges. This is not a whimsical cha=
nge, but is based on some
> > > serious
> > > > number crunching compar=
ing the effectiveness of different type of
> weapons
> > > on
> > > >=
different types of target under the 40K rules. What this number
> crunch=
ing
> > > > showed was that vehicles were under-gunned and under-armoured=
in Epic
> > > > compared to 40K, and this is something I'd like the new =
rules to
> reflect
> > > in
> > > > the new stats.
> > > >
> > > =
> The other thing I should point out here is that the Firepower of an
> >=
> infantry
> > > > unit only takes into account the special and heavy we=
apons carried by
> the
> > > > units. The effect of short-ranged weapon=
s like bolters or lasguns are
> > > > included in the units Assault and F=
irefight values instead. One of the
> > > basic
> > > > design premises=
of Epic is that the Shooting phase represents long
> range
> > > > har=
assing fire, while an assault represents an all-out attack made
> with
=
> > > 'all
> > > > guns blazing'. Because of this, the casualty rate for =
an Epic Shooting
> > > phase
> > > > is based on what you'd expect from=
a single round of shooting in 40K,
> > > while
> > > > the casualties =
suffered in an assault will be close to those suffered
> in a
> > > > c=
omplete 40K game. Or to put it another way, if you imagine the
> Movemen=
t
> > > > and Shooting phases in Epic being the bits that happened just b=
efore a
> > > game
> > > > of 40K begins, then you won't go too far wro=
ng!
> > > >
> > > > But I digress. The important thing here is that the=
se changes greatly
> > > > increase the amount of detail (or rules chrome=
) for each unit, while
> at
> > > the
> > > > same time sticking broa=
dly within the basic Epic 40,000 game system.
> I'm
> > > > really plea=
sed with the way the changes work, but I'd value feedback
> to
> > > kn=
ow
> > > > what you think about the game heading in this direction.
> >=
> > Interesting. Funny to see many Heresy Concepts being used. Hoepfully=
they
> will be impleted well.
> >
> > > > A Sprinkling Of New Rules
=
> > > > When I started designing Epic back in 1995-6 I wanted it to refle=
ct
> what I
> > > > considered to be some important aspects of modern c=
ombined arms
> warfare.
> > > > Like almost all GW's design team, I'm a=
n avid reader of military
> history,
> > > > and what I wanted Epic to =
do was reflect some of the things I'd read
> about
> > > > but which we=
ren't really covered in the previous edition of the game.
> In
> > > > =
particular, I wanted Epic to show the suppressive effect of fire,
> which=
> > > > basically means that shooting at people is just as much about ge=
tting
> them
> > > > to put their heads down as it is about killing the=
m. This is where the
> > > idea
> > > > for the Blast markers came from=
. I also wanted the game to force the
> > > players
> > > > to make qui=
ck decisions and constantly have to update their plans.
> This is
> > >=
> the reason for the high movement rates in the game and the dramatic
> =
> > effects
> > > > of assaults and close combat, which often means that =
a player will
> find
> > > > himself having to change and modify his ba=
ttleplan every turn to
> reflect
> > > the
> > > > changing nature of=
the situation of the battlefield.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, since Epic w=
as published I've carried on reading my military
> > > history
> > > > =
books and thinking about how best to represent the things I've read
> abo=
ut
> > > in
> > > > the wargames I play. Over that time there are two t=
hings that I've
> come to
> > > > think aren't reflected at all well in=
Epic. These are the importance
> of
> > > the
> > > > flank attack, =
and the ability of better-trained troops to seize the
> > > > initiative =
and dictate the flow of a battle.
> >
> > Very insightful thoughts. The=
se were also things very present in our minds
> when we made Heresy. I am=
not sure if they can be implemented on top of the
> e40k system, but we'=
ll see.
> >
> > > > Outflanking An Opponent
> > > > Outflanking an op=
ponent, or to use modern parlance, achieving a
> position
> > > > where=
you can enfilade an opponent, is a tactic as old as the hills
> but
> =
> > > still vitally important to this day, and which (I am sure) will still=
> be
> > > > important well into the future. Because of this good comm=
anders will
> > > strive
> > > > to outflank an opposing force if they =
can when attacking, and to
> protect
> > > > their own flanks from enem=
y attack when on the defence. The more I've
> read
> > > > about it, th=
e more I've come to feel that this is really something
> that
> > > Epi=
c
> > > > commanders need to be worrying about as well.
> > > >
> > >=
> The problem is defining when an Epic detachment has been outflanked,
>=
> > > considering that the detachment can be set up with pretty much any
=
> facing.
> > > > For quite a while I couldn't figure a way round this, =
at least not
> without
> > > > adding in armour facings and fire arcs f=
or weapons, and that was
> something
> > > I
> > > > simply wasn't wi=
lling to do (waaay too complicated and boring). Still,
> the
> > > > pr=
oblem remained in the back of my mind until I read some material
> > > > =
describing the 'axis of attack' of a formation in a battle. What the
> ax=
is
> > > of
> > > > attack refers to is the direction a unit will attac=
k, or the direction
> it
> > > is
> > > > expecting an attack to come=
from when on the defensive. "Hmmmm!" I
> > > thought,
> > > > "If I sa=
y that a detachment's HQ defines the formation's axis of
> attack,
> > =
> > then I'll be able to write rules for outflanking it." The idea is
> r=
ather
> > > > simple (a good thing if you ask me!), and boils down to the=
following:
> In
> > > > order for a detachment to shoot or assault, th=
en at least half the
> units
> > > > from the enemy detachment(s) it wi=
ll engage must be in the front arc
> > > (front
> > > > 180=D7) of the =
detachment HQ. More importantly, enemy detachments that
> lie
> > > > c=
ompletely outside the HQ's front arc achieve enfilade and cause
> double
=
> > > the
> > > > normal number of blast markers. Armoured vehicles los=
e their saving
> throw
> > > > against AT shots from detachments that h=
ave enfiladed them.
> > > >
> > > > <There's a diagram in the article, =
but unfortunately I can't include
> it
> > > > here!>
> > > >
> > >=
> The tactical implications of this fairly simple rules change are
> imm=
ense.
> > > > For a start it encourages you to keep HQ's sensibly at the =
back of a
> > > > detachment. It also means you really need to try and co=
ver the flanks
> of
> > > an
> > > > attacking formation, because if =
it goes in 'straight up the middle' it
> > > will
> > > > probably get =
outflanked. Thirdly, it gives a big payback for the
> player
> > > that=
> > > > manages to outflank an enemy force. I for one can't wait to try =
it out
> > > > properly in some games!
> >
> > Pretty darn slick! Per=
haps one of the ideas I like the most and it brings
> some command contro=
l factor to the battlefield. I think this one will fit
> well in the epic=
40k system as it stands.
> >
> > > > Seizing The Initiative
> > > > =
The other thing I'd like to see reflected in Epic is the ability of
> > >=
> well-trained troops to seize and (more importantly) hold on to the
> >=
> > initiative during a battle. Epic already covers this to some extent
=
> with
> > > the
> > > > initiative rules, but I would like to give it =
rather more prominence.
> As
> > > it
> > > > happens, Pete Haines of=
the 40K development team (and a big fan of
> Epic)
> > > has
> > > >=
been thinking along similar lines, the more so after playing quite a
> l=
ot
> > > of
> > > > Warmaster recently, and he forwarded me some rules =
he's been working
> on
> > > for
> > > > incorporating ideas from War=
master into Epic. On the basis that
> artists
> > > > steal (while amat=
eurs only copy) I've nicked the ideas I liked from
> Pete's
> > > > pro=
posal and added them to some ideas of my own to come up with some
> > > >=
modifications to the rules for initiative, the sequence of play and
> > =
> special
> > > > orders. Unfortunately, there isn't space to write the =
rules in full,
> but
> > > I
> > > > can give an outline of how they =
work.
> >
> > This is also a good idea, but he could put in some game c=
ontrols, since
> armies with real good training, with some average luck c=
an trounce armies
> with low training. I'd introduce a penalty for beyond=
a certain number of
> units activate that could also be army dependent. =
For example a higher
> trained army like space marine can activate extra =
units at no penalty until
> reaching the 3rd or 4th unit after which chec=
ks are made at -1 and the
> penalty gets larger after a higher amount act=
ivated. Less trained armies
> like orks may have problems activating more=
units beyond one or two. The
> systme would autoregulate itself better t=
his way.
> >
> > > >
> > > > Basically, what I propose is to combine =
the Movement and Shooting
> phases
> > > > into a single 'Action' phase=
. In the Action phase the initiative can
> pass
> > > > from side to si=
de. The player with the highest strategy rating goes
> first
> > > by
=
> > > > picking a detachment and carrying out an action with it
> > > > =
(move/assault/march/overwatch). Having carried out an action the
> player=
> > > has
> > > > a choice. He can either relinquish the initiative or=
try to retain it.
> To
> > > > retain the initiative the player must n=
ominate a new detachment and
> then
> > > > make an Initiative test for=
it by rolling a D6 (see the box below for
> some
> > > > example Initi=
ative values). If the test is passed then the initiative
> is
> > > > r=
etained and the player may carry out an action with the nominated
> > > >=
formation. If the test fails (or the player voluntarily gives up the
> >=
> > initiative) then the initiative passes to the other player, who must
=
> then
> > > > activate a detachment. Once all formations have taken an =
action the
> phase
> > > > ends.
> > > >
> > > > Note that when you=
get the initiative you must activate a detachment,
> you
> > > > can't=
pass immediately. If a player has no detachments left to
> activate
> =
> > the
> > > > opposing player keeps the initiative for the rest of the =
phase, and
> must
> > > > keep on activating units until all have had a=
n action. Also note that
> > > > failing an Initiative test doesn't stop =
a formation from getting an
> action
> > > > later in the same turn, it=
just delays things and gives the opponent a
> > > > chance to interfere.=
Finally, note that a detachment may only be
> activated
> > > > once p=
er Action phase.
> > > >
> > > > So, once you have the initiative you m=
ay pick a unit and take an
> action
> > > with
> > > > it. As already=
noted, the Shooting and Movement phases have been
> combined
> > > > i=
nto one phase, which means that an action allows a unit to move and
> > >=
shoot.
> > > > See the box below for descriptions of the actions a detac=
hment can
> carry
> > > > out.
> > > > The other important thing to n=
ote about actions is that detachments
> which
> > > > choose assault or=
ders make any charge moves in the Action phase, not
> in
> > > the
> =
> > > Assault phase. Detachments that have been assaulted can take an
> a=
ction,
> > > but
> > > > units from the detachment that have been engag=
ed (i.e., are in base
> > > contact
> > > > with the enemy) won't be al=
lowed to move. This means that a detachment
> > > that
> > > > has been=
assaulted will need to pick assault orders itself if it wants
> to
> >=
> > move units up to join in the fight. In the Assault phase you simply
=
> > > resolve
> > > > all assaults and firefights resulting from the acti=
ons carried out in
> the
> > > > Action phase. The player with the high=
er strategy rating picks one
> > > assault,
> > > > then resolves it. T=
hen the other player picks an assault, and so on.
> Once
> > > > all as=
saults have been resolved, move onto firefights. The player with
> the
=
> > > > higher strategy rating picks one firefight, then resolves it. Then =
the
> > > other
> > > > player picks an assault, and so on.
> > > >
=
> > > > Now, I have to admit that the new initiative system is a more rule=
s
> heavy
> > > > and fundamental change than the outflanking rule, but=
I'm looking
> forward
> > > to
> > > > trying it out equally as much=
. What I find most intriguing about it is
> the
> > > > decisions it wi=
ll force on players as to which units to activate next,
> and
> > > > w=
hat to get them to do. Do I pull back with this detachment before it
> ge=
ts
> > > > tied up by an assault? Or should I fire on that detachment whi=
le it's
> > > still
> > > > in range, etc, etc, etc. It should provide =
players with a real
> challenge -
> > > I
> > > > just hope it doesn'=
t slow the game down too much as a result.
> > > >
> > > > Epic 40,000 =
Armageddon Actions
> > > >
> > > > Space Marines Initiative =3D 2+
> =
> > > Imperial Guard Initiative =3D 3+
> > > > Ork Initiative =3D 4+ unle=
ss formation will assault, in which case
> > > > automatically keeps the =
initiative.
> > > >
> > > > Detachments with Blast markers get a -1 mod=
ifier, or a -2 modifier if
> it
> > > has
> > > > more Blast markers =
than units.
> > > >
> > > > Move: Make a normal move and then shoot.
=
> > > > Assault: Make a double move and then shoot at half effect. Formatio=
ns
> may
> > > > enter close combat (move into base contact) without be=
ing snap-fired
> upon.
> > > > Note that units in close combat may shoo=
t and be shot at and that the
> unit
> > > > no longer has to charge th=
e enemy - assault moves can be used
> > > 'defensively'.
> > > >
> > =
> > March: Make a triple move, but no shooting and enemy attacks use the
=
> march
> > > > column of the Firepower table.
> > > > Overwatch: Move =
up to 5cm and shoot, re-rolling misses.
> > > > Retreat: This is the only=
action that may be chosen by broken
> detachments.
> > > > Move 20cm, =
ending more than 15cm from enemy. May not shoot.
> >
> > Hehe, pure Her=
esy. I think moving to a action based instead of purely
> phase based gam=
e is a real good idea. It eliminates a lot of the headaches
> the phase b=
ased system has and stuff like overwatch works a lot better too.
> I thin=
k the last three ideas are very good and will enchance the game a lot,
> =
although I have my reservations if they will fit with the core e40k
> mec=
hanic. Its a shame they dont start from scratch to better do justice to
>=
these fine ideas.
> >
> > Of course remember most of them are in Heres=
y anyway <wink, wink>
> >
> >
> > Now these are some questions for a =
our list members:
> >
> > 1. Should this group get involved with this p=
roject?
> > 2. How should we forward any feedback? As a group? Individual=
ly?
> >
> > Of course this will all depend how real is the "contributio=
n from players
> is". For now its watch and wait, but I'd apprecaite view=
s on all this.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To uns=
ubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
> >
> > Your u=
se of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
=
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_=
egroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.y=
ahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
=
To unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
=
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>here is th=
e link :
http://www.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/epic40k/el_epicres.htm<=
/FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; M=
ARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
s=
tyle=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:<=
/B>
<A title=3Dprimarch_at_... href=3D"mailto:primarch@...">P=
eter Ramos</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A ti=
tle=3Dnetepic_at_yahoogroups.com
href=3D"mailto:netepic_at_yahoogroups.com">ne=
tepic_at_yahoogroups.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:=
</B> Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:38
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt=
arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY
FANATIC NEWSLETTER =
(late!)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>Hi!<BR><BR>By the way what forum is Jerv=
is using for this
"developing"? After I hear from group members we can d=
ecide on what to do. The
sheer playtesting potential this list can gener=
ate is staggering, that alone
is an asset GW could use.<BR><BR>Note it d=
oesn't change what Net Epic is or
does. It just opens new doors and supp=
ort to the game we love. <BR><BR>It
would be nice to be on the official =
(fanatic) side for a
bit.<BR><BR>Peter<BR><BR>----- Original Message ---=
-- <BR>From: "Warren
Coleman" <warren.c_at_...><BR>To:
=
<netepic_at_yahoogroups.com><BR>Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:50 =
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER
(late!=
)<BR><BR><BR>> Good comments Peter.� I believe that the group
ha=
s to contribute to the next<BR>> phase of E40K, if not the project may
=
die and I for one would not want that<BR>> as I would love GW to produ=
ce
some more miniatures for the races out there<BR>> and introduce ne=
w
races.� To do this there needs to be growth in the<BR>> intere=
st of
the game and it's player base.� We can help to develop the ga=
me<BR>>
that |I believe the players want, but as Kenneth ahs stated N=
O GW bashing
as<BR>> they will turn a deaf ear to us on everything.<B=
R>> <BR>> Let
us get together and help GW create a game which they=
will be wiling to<BR>>
support with future figure launches, then we =
can expand our gaming base
and<BR>> diversity in the Net Epic field.<=
BR>> <BR>> That's my
thought any way..<BR>> <BR>> Warren<BR>=
> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> From: Peter Ramos <primarch=
_at_...><BR>> To:
<netepic_at_yahoogroups.com><BR>> Sent=
: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:35
PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] =
Fw: JANUARY FANATIC NEWSLETTER
(late!)<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > Hi=
!<BR>> ><BR>> > Comments
regarding Jervis post below.<BR>>=
; ><BR>> ><BR>> > > >
Right then, the rest of this =
newsletter is made up of an editorial I<BR>>
wrote<BR>> > > =
> for Epic Magazine 7 concerning the future of the
Epic game system. =
It<BR>> is<BR>> > > > rather long (aren't all
the thing I=
write?!?), but even if you don't<BR>> play<BR>> > >
> Ep=
ic I think it will contain stuff you might find of interest. In<BR>>
=
> > particular<BR>> > > > I'm keen to involve the players=
in
the development process of the new<BR>> game<BR>> > > &g=
t; system,
rather than spring it upon them as a 'fait accompli', and on<=
BR>>
this<BR>> > > > basis getting feedback and comments =
from players
who don't play Epic<BR>> at<BR>> > > the<BR>>=
; > > >
moment is almost as important as getting feedback from =
players that<BR>>
do.<BR>> ><BR>> > How do you get commen=
ts from players "who don't
play epic at the moment"?<BR>> Are they re=
fering to epic players like us
who don't play epic 40k or epic<BR>> 4=
0k players who for whatever reason
don't play the game anymore? It's har=
d<BR>> to get feedback from players
who don't play epic 40k, because =
its very<BR>> likely they are no longer
are looking into information =
sources that would<BR>> alert them that such a
project is taking plac=
e. Lets face it, if Warren did<BR>> not post this
would we EVER had f=
ound out?<BR>> ><BR>> > > > Here then is
the article. =
I'll be back in a couple of weeks with<BR>> another,<BR>>
> >=
; > rather wider ranging Fanatic newsletter, I promise, honest guv,
h=
ave I<BR>> > > ever<BR>> > > > lied to you...<BR>> =
> > ><BR>> > > > EPIC EVOLUTION<BR>> > > &=
gt; By
Jervis Johnson<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > WHY =
A NEW
EDITION?<BR>> > > > I've said it before, but I'll say =
it again,
Epic 40,000 is the game<BR>> design<BR>> > > I<BR>=
> > >
> am most proud to have worked on. I think it's an abs=
olutely
superb<BR>> game;<BR>> > > its<BR>> > > >=
; elegant
mechanics create a tense and exciting game with plenty of<BR>&=
gt; > >
manoeuvre<BR>> > > > and action, and it reward=
s carefully thought
out strategy & tactics<BR>> better<BR>> &g=
t; > > than any
other GW game, with the possible exception of Warm=
aster.<BR>> Above<BR>>
> > all,<BR>> > > > it is=
a game designed to be played, and
I think it is telling that<BR>> mo=
st of<BR>> > > > the
criticism the game has received has com=
e from people who have<BR>>
never<BR>> > > > played more =
than a game or two.<BR>>
><BR>> > The usualy party (and desp=
icable) line. Saying that "it's
the most proud<BR>> design I have wor=
ked on" does not disguise its utter
failure in the<BR>> marketplace. =
If he doesn't want to admit he screwed up
thats fine, but he<BR>> sho=
uldn't repeat this silly little line, because
simply put, a untruth, no<=
BR>> matter how much repeated. does not make it
truth. Saying its a s=
upeb game<BR>> ad-nasuem doesn't make it one and if it
was so superb =
why is he trying to<BR>> make a new edition? Flawed
logic.....<BR>>=
; ><BR>> > The second is also typical. To infer that
those who =
don't like the game or<BR>> critize it are people that "never
played =
more than a game or two" is not<BR>> only false, but pretty
insulting=
too. I myself played 12 test games and did<BR>> not like the game
at=
the end of that run. I'd like to dispell the silly<BR>> notion that you=
need to play a game into the ground in order to find out<BR>> whethe=
r you
think its good. Different people learn in different ways. Some<BR>=
> are
more visual, some more abstract. None is "better" than the othe=
r. Some<BR>>
like to play a couple of games to get a "feel" for it. S=
ome like me
need<BR>> only to read the rules a couple of times to get=
the "feel". The
bottomline<BR>> its a game and whether you like it o=
r not is based on a
host of subjective<BR>> paramemeter. Its the hieg=
ht of arrogance to assume
that one persons<BR>> parameters are the ON=
LY ones that matter.<BR>>
> > ><BR>> > > > None =
the less, love Epic as I do, I have
come to think that what is<BR>> r=
eally<BR>> > > > needed to
revitalise the game is a brand ne=
w edition of the rules.<BR>> Above<BR>>
> > > all, I've c=
ome to think that the game needs a healthy injection
of<BR>> > >=
; 'gritty'<BR>> > > > new rules to help
differentiate the un=
its in the game and give Epic<BR>> more<BR>> >
> > flavou=
r.<BR>> ><BR>> > Really!? <slaps head> I
cold have tol=
d you that 24hrs after I bought epic<BR>> 40k
<sarcasm>.<BR>>=
; ><BR>> > > > Game Play vs.
Flavour<BR>> > > &g=
t; Considering how proud I was of Epic, you can
imagine my disappointmen=
t<BR>> > > when<BR>> > > > the
game was released an=
d proved much less successful than I had hoped<BR>>
or<BR>> > &=
gt; > imagined it would be. With hindsight it's possible
to see that =
there<BR>> were<BR>> > > a<BR>> > > >
number of =
reasons for Epic's poor showing; the game and the miniatures<BR>>
>=
; > were<BR>> > > > poorly marketed, the release schedule
=
was patchy, all support stopped<BR>> in<BR>> > > WD<BR>> &g=
t;
> > soon after the games release, and so on. However, the most =
common<BR>> > > complaint<BR>> > > > raised by play=
ers
that didn't like the game was that it was not<BR>> detailed<BR>&g=
t; >
> or<BR>> > > > realistic enough (whatever realis=
tic means in
this context).<BR>> ><BR>> > Unsuccessful? Shee=
sh, what an
understatement. Under epic 40k, epic for the<BR>> FIRST t=
ime went out of
print. If that wasn't telling him he made a terrible<BR>=
> mistake then I
dont know what would.<BR>> ><BR>> >�=
; Rather than<BR>> >
> > appreciating the elegant game mecha=
nics and superb game play,
these<BR>> > > players<BR>> > =
> > felt the game was
abstract and lifeless - it simply failed to =
fire<BR>> their<BR>> >
> > imagination and so they didn't=
want to play the game.<BR>> >
> > We've talked about this c=
omplaint quite a lot in the Studio since
Epic<BR>> > > came<BR>=
> > > > out. As a designer I am
interested in making games t=
hat are fun to<BR>> play.<BR>> > >
For<BR>> > > >=
; this reason I worry a lot about over-complex rules
and turgid game<BR>=
> play.<BR>> > > On<BR>> > > > the
other hand ma=
ny players clearly like detailed rules with lots of<BR>> >
> ch=
rome.<BR>> > > > Previous editions of Epic (Adeptus
Titanicu=
s '1' and Space Marine) had<BR>> > > tons<BR>> > >
>=
; of special rules and detail, but suffered from turgid and<BR>>
unim=
aginative<BR>> > > game<BR>> > > > play as a result,
=
while Epic 40,000 is superbly playable but at the<BR>> cost<BR>> &g=
t;
> of<BR>> > > > very abstracted game mechanics. What i=
nterests
me now is to try to<BR>> create<BR>> > > a<BR>> =
> > >
modified version of Epic which will balance off these con=
flicting<BR>> >
> interests<BR>> > > > and create a=
game that works well for
both groups, and as a result<BR>> will<BR>&=
gt; > > make<BR>> >
> > Epic gaming once again a vital=
part of the 40K hobby. Later on in
this<BR>> > > > article =
I explain some of the methods I'm thinking
about using to<BR>> achiev=
e<BR>> > > > this.<BR>>
><BR>> > It seems FINALL=
Y Mr. Jervis realizes what some of the
problem is. Yes, it<BR>> doesn=
't have character, yes, it doesn't have
flavor and yes it failed to<BR>&=
gt; spark the imagination of the majority of
epic gamers. Of course, thi=
s is all<BR>> preceeded by the the statement
that gamers didn't appre=
ciate how elegant the<BR>> system was. Here's a
thought maybe it wasn=
't that elegant, maybe it's not as<BR>> brillinat as
he thought. Note=
it tales him nearly 5 years after the games<BR>> release
to realize =
things that most people on this list figured out� by
the<BR>> fi=
rst summer of the games release (some 3-6 months after
release).<BR>>=
><BR>> > I particularly laugh at the comment on
"turgid and un=
imaginative" play of<BR>> 2nd edition epic. Yeah, right, like
you add=
ed those things to epic 40k,<BR>> thats how come it did so good
<s=
arcasm>.<BR>> ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
H=
owever, my perception that Epic would benefit from slightly grittier<BR>>=
;
and<BR>> > > > more detailed game mechanics is not a compe=
lling
enough reason on its<BR>> own<BR>> > > > for doing =
a new
edition of the game.� So, before moving on to what I<BR>> =
am<BR>>
> > > actually planning to do, here are the other re=
asons that made
me<BR>> decide<BR>> > > that<BR>> > &g=
t; > we really had
to do a new edition...<BR>> > > ><BR>&=
gt; > > >
Battlefleet Gothic, Miniature Ranges and Big Rocks!<B=
R>> > > >
Since Epic was released there has been another GW =
game that uses<BR>>
almost<BR>> > > > identical game mech=
anics, but proved far, far
more successful. I am,<BR>> of<BR>> >=
; > > course, referring to
Battlefleet Gothic (BFG for short). One=
of the<BR>> most<BR>> > >
> interesting things for me ab=
out BFG's success is that I've seen
hardly<BR>> any<BR>> > >=
> comments to the effect that it is
too simple or abstract. Which be=
gs<BR>> the<BR>> > > >
question, why is this when BFG use=
s the same 'engine' as Epic?<BR>>
Although<BR>> > > BFG<BR>&=
gt; > > > is slightly more
detailed than Epic, I think the real=
reason for this<BR>> > > >
difference in the way the two ga=
mes are perceived lies in the way that<BR>>
the<BR>> > > >=
; army lists and background are presented.<BR>>
> > ><BR>>=
; > > > In Epic the 'Armies Book' provides very
little informat=
ion on the<BR>> units<BR>> > > used<BR>> >
> > i=
n the game other than their name and stat line, and most units
are<BR>&g=
t; not<BR>> > > > illustrated. In BFG, on the other hand,
al=
l of the units used in the<BR>> game<BR>> > > > are pictured=
and fully described. There is also much more information<BR>> in<BR>=
>
> > BFG<BR>> > > > about the background to the ga=
me, which
is set during one campaign<BR>> that is<BR>> > > &=
gt; described in
meticulous detail. I think that this difference in<BR>&=
gt; approach<BR>>
> > > makes BFG 'feel' much realer, while =
Epic tends to make it feel
more<BR>> > > abstract<BR>> > =
> > and game-like. This
point of view has been strengthened by num=
erous<BR>> > > >
conversations I've had with players about E=
pic that goes along the<BR>>
lines<BR>> > > of:<BR>> >=
> ><BR>> > > >
Player: "The reason I don't like Epic =
is that all units feel the same.<BR>>
I<BR>> > > > want m=
y Leman Russ to feel like a Leman Russ, not
just any old tank."<BR>> =
> > ><BR>> > > > Jervis: "But
all the units are dif=
ferent. A Leman Russ has different<BR>> rules<BR>>
> > > =
to a Land Raider or a Predator or a Rhino."<BR>> > >
><BR>&g=
t; > > > Player: "Yeah, I know that, but they don't feel
differ=
ent."<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Tellingly, I've
neve=
r had this conversation about BFG Escort ships,<BR>> even<BR>> >
=
> > though they use almost exactly the same game mechanics as vehic=
les
in<BR>> > > Epic.<BR>> > > > All of which leads=
me to
conclude that one of the big failings for<BR>> Epic<BR>> &g=
t; >
was<BR>> > > > in terms of its presentation, and tha=
t we need to
do a new edition of<BR>> Epic<BR>> > > > in =
order to put this
right. My current thinking is to take a leaf from<BR>&=
gt; the<BR>> >
> > BFG book (I know, bad pun) and focus on o=
ne campaign in great
detail.<BR>> The<BR>> > > > campaign=
I've decided to
concentrate on is the Armageddon campaign,<BR>> part=
ly<BR>> > >
> because it's an important part of the 40K back=
ground at the moment
and<BR>> so<BR>> > > > lots of poten=
tial new Epic players will
have heard about it, but<BR>> mainly<BR>&g=
t; > > > because 'Epic
40,000 - Armageddon' is just about the s=
exiest title for<BR>> a<BR>>
> > > game ever!<BR>> >=
;<BR>> > I think this is probably
the most insightful stuff he has=
to say. It goes<BR>> to show what I have
said all along that mechani=
cs should be matched with the<BR>> system
portrayed. The little BFG I=
played was quite fun and the mechanics<BR>>
seemed quite at home. Bu=
t it doesn't in epic. What is fun and neccessary
to<BR>> abstract in =
a starship game may not sit well in a grand scale
combat game.<BR>> H=
e realizes this, perhaps he will finally "get
it".<BR>> ><BR>> =
> > > By now some of you will be saying
"Armageddon, hmmm, isn'=
t that just<BR>> > > between<BR>> > >
> the Imperiu=
m and the Orks? What about other armies?" Now I won't
beat<BR>> > =
> about<BR>> > > > the bush on this -
initially we will c=
oncentrate all of our attention<BR>> on<BR>> >
> > Imperi=
al and Ork armies, though we will publish 'Get you by'
army<BR>> list=
s<BR>> > > for<BR>> > > > players that
already have=
other armies. This decision will have a big<BR>> > >
impact<BR=
>> > > > on the model range that we will release to go
along=
with the new<BR>> edition<BR>> > > of<BR>> > > >
=
the rules. Instead of simply putting all of the old models fully back<BR>=
>
into<BR>> > > > production, we will only make the model=
s for the
Imperial and Ork<BR>> armies<BR>> > > > availab=
le, possibly
supplemented by a small 'Chaos Space Marine<BR>> Raiders=
'<BR>> > >
> range and an equally small 'Eldar Pirates' rang=
e.<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > Doing this will give a =
tidy, focused range that we
can build up over<BR>> time<BR>> > =
> to<BR>> > > >
cover all of the other races in the 40K g=
alaxy, just as we have done<BR>>
with<BR>> > > > BFG. Mor=
e importantly, including all of the races
and models from the<BR>> la=
st<BR>> > > > edition would add at
least an extra year to th=
e production time for<BR>> the<BR>> > >
new<BR>> > >=
; > edition, and frankly I'm just not willing to wait
an extra year b=
efore<BR>> my<BR>> > > > favourite game is
available agai=
n! None of which is going to save me<BR>> from<BR>> >
> >=
the howls or protest from players whose armies aren't covered in
Epic<B=
R>> > > 40,000<BR>> > > > Armageddon, but that's
li=
fe as a game designer I suppose!<BR>> ><BR>> > Bad, Bad, Bad.
=
One major reason epic 40k failed was due to a horrible<BR>> release
=
schedule where armies like chaos got shafted. If they do this again<BR>>=
; I
dont see why the end effect will change. If I am a chaos or eldar
=
player<BR>> why would I buy a game that doesn't support fully my armies=
and
I have NO<BR>> guarantee it will survive release? Given GW track=
record I
dont blame an
(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1B1D6.F5890580--From "Peter Ramos" <primarch_at_...> Sun Feb 10 01:05:41 2002
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Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] websid/jervis
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:05:41 -0400
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From: "Peter Ramos" <primarch_at_...>
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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1B1AD.885B54F0
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Hi!
The 4.1 will be the one available under Net Epic 4 since I uploaded th=
ose files to Tom as well as everything else we wanted recently, like buildi=
ngs, counters and templates. Once done it should be very useful for players=
.
GW bashing is just something we do when bored <grin> Its been quiet late=
ly so thats where that comes from. But as you remember when it comes to bus=
iness this stuff is cast aside.
I too would like to build upon net epic. T=
he full color/background/pictures rules is a dream and goal that I have for=
net epic. Daniel Wolf our current editor wanted to do the same. Of course =
we all have jobs and real life to contend to. I would love to do this. The =
back ground thread was in part to serve to produce a background we could us=
e for such a book. As for art you should keep a way from official GW art, a=
bove all else they get very testy is you use it. You can make your own art =
of course an thats open as far as what you can use.
Heresy is just somethi=
ng me and Kenneth cam up with since we like to push the envelope as far as =
rules goes. Its not for everyone and it will never substitute netepic. Its =
another tool to create interest.
What you offer is pure gold. If you like =
to share you ideas mail me direct and I can learn how to help you in this a=
nd make it come true. It will take a long time but good things always do. H=
ehe we can call it Net Epic gold edition when done!
Peter
----- Original=
Message -----
From: christian danckworth
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com=
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:50 PM
Subject: [NetEpic ML] websi=
d/jervis
it would be cool to also put the 4.1 rules on it !
by the w=
ay - i agree with warren about the jervis paper - with my interest in new m=
iniatures and the possibility to keep epic alive - but my main interest bes=
ides would be to make netepic grow - including the visual upgrades , which =
- of course - are not easy - to make it really attractive (including artwor=
k ,etc.). on the other hand i think that bashing epic 40.000/gw is useless=
in a way that i think epic 40.000 also has good sides, it is a question of=
taste - unfortunately a modified 2nd edition version by gw is quite unreal=
istic - but that doesnt matter because there is this group - and the rules =
development of this group is on a high quality of it - i think it would be =
usefull to put the main energy in making netepic grow - by "recruiting" new=
players - kind of doublestrategy - on one hand interest/need for the new m=
inis (i have seen prototypes of forgeworld epic tau on dropship - really gr=
eat) and on the other hand a structure of attraction - for example - better=
artwork, sources (where do i get the files , the minis - for example ebay,=
a players-list, etc.).
heresy for example is not my thing, i am not real=
ly interested in it, because me and my epic -group use netepic - including =
houserules, share miniatures, or sources or buy stuff together, make our ow=
n conversions and armycards (creativity) - on the basis that we all love th=
e warhammer 40.000 universe and think epic battles are done best with netep=
ic rules.
i am quite busy at the moment - but what i can offer : when i=
find the time i can do some new layout of the rules and armybooks (better =
than the standard times-new-roman-look). if there is interest i need to kno=
w one thing : which kind of artwork by gw can be used without getting real =
trouble ? (to make a hint to the 40.000 backround this would be important -=
i did my personal layout of my netepic books for example cause i love artw=
ork and great layout as an important aspect of atmosphere).
i am quite ti=
red at the moment so this were some little thoughts out of my tired mind - =
i am looking forward to the debate about the jervis paper
c-ya
christia=
n
for those who do not know : "weirdboy" - an netepic-e-zine can be foun=
d on my page
http://www.fantastictool.net.
----- Original Message ----=
-
From: Peter Ramos
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday=
, February 10, 2002 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] webside/technica=
l problems
Hi!
Tom is in the middle of fixing all that. I will b=
e contacting him so as to try to learn Frontpage and try to update it too.
=
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: christian danckw=
orth
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 09,=
2002 6:47 PM
Subject: [NetEpic ML] webside/technical problems
=
hi -
i wanted to "convice" epic 40.000 players by showing/ giving t=
hem the url www.netepic.org - but they could not download the rules and mos=
t of the other stuff...
greetz
cd
-----------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------
christian danck=
worth
miniature-design
http://www.fantastictool.net
fant=
astictool
p.o box 55 02 03
10372 berlin/germany
To unsu=
bscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
Your use of=
Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
To unsubs=
cribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com
Your use of Yah=
oo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Yahoo! Gro=
ups Sponsor
To unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsu=
bscribe_at_egroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! =
Terms of Service.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1B1AD.885B54F0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>=
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1=
">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>=
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi!</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT fa=
ce=3DArial size=3D2>The 4.1 will be the one available under Net Epic 4
sin=
ce I uploaded those files to Tom as well as everything else we wanted
rece=
ntly, like buildings, counters and templates. Once done it should be very
=
useful for players.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>GW bashing is just something we=
do when bored
<grin> Its been quiet lately so thats where that come=
s from. But as you
remember when it comes to business this stuff is cast a=
side.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DI=
V><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I too would like to build upon net epic. The =
full
color/background/pictures rules is a dream and goal that I have for n=
et epic.
Daniel Wolf our current editor wanted to do the same. Of course w=
e all have jobs
and real life to contend to. I would love to do this. The =
back ground thread was
in part to serve to produce a background we could u=
se for such a book. As for
art you should keep a way from official GW art,=
above all else they get very
testy is you use it. You can make your own a=
rt of course an thats open as far as
what you can use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><=
FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=
=3D2>Heresy is just something me and Kenneth cam up with
since we like to =
push the envelope as far as rules goes. Its not for everyone
and it will n=
ever substitute netepic. Its another tool to create
interest.</FONT></DIV>=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DAri=
al size=3D2>What you offer is pure gold. If you like to share
you ideas ma=
il me direct and I can learn how to help you in this and make it
come true=
. It will take a long time but good things always do. Hehe we can call
it =
Net Epic gold edition when done!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=
=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter</FONT></DIV=
>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:=
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"F=
ONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style=3D"BAC=
KGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A t=
itle=3Dce.de_at_... href=3D"mailto:ce.de@...">christian danckworth</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetepic_at_=
yahoogroups.com
href=3D"mailto:netepic_at_yahoogroups.com">netepic_at_yahoogro=
ups.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday,=
February 09, 2002 9:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Su=
bject:</B> [NetEpic ML] websid/jervis</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>it would be cool to also put the 4.1 rules on it
!=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV=
><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>by the way - i agree with warren about the jer=
vis
paper - with my interest in new miniatures and the possibility to ke=
ep epic
alive - but my main interest besides would be to make netepic gr=
ow - including
the visual upgrades , which - of course - are not easy - =
to make it really
attractive (including artwork ,etc.). on the other han=
d i think that bashing
epic 40.000/gw �is useless in a way that i t=
hink epic 40.000 also has
good sides, it is a question of taste - unfort=
unately a modified 2nd edition
version by gw is quite unrealistic - but =
that doesnt matter because there is
this group - and the rules developme=
nt of this group is on a high quality of
it - i think it would be useful=
l to put the main energy in making netepic grow
- by "recruiting" new pl=
ayers - kind of doublestrategy - on one hand
interest/need for the new m=
inis (i have seen prototypes of forgeworld epic tau
on dropship - really=
great) and on the other hand a structure of attraction -
for example - =
better artwork, sources (where do i get the files , the minis -
for exam=
ple ebay, a players-list, etc.).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial siz=
e=3D2>heresy for example is not my thing, i am not
really interested in =
it, because me and my epic -group use netepic - including
houserules, sh=
are miniatures, or sources or buy stuff together, make our own
conversio=
ns and armycards�(creativity) - on the basis that we all love
the w=
arhammer 40.000 universe and think epic battles are done best with
netep=
ic rules. �</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i am quite=
busy at the moment - but what i can
offer : when i find the time i can =
do some new layout of the rules and
armybooks (better than the standard =
times-new-roman-look). if there is
interest i need to know one thing : w=
hich kind of artwork by gw can be used
without getting real trouble ? (t=
o make a hint to the 40.000 backround this
would be important - i did my=
personal layout of my netepic books for example
cause i love artwork an=
d great layout as an important aspect of
atmosphere).</FONT></DIV>
<DI=
V><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i am quite tired at the moment so this were s=
ome
little thoughts out of my tired mind - i am looking forward to the d=
ebate
about the jervis paper</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=
=3D2>c-ya</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>christian</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT f=
ace=3DArial size=3D2>for those who do not know : "weirdboy" - an
netepic=
-e-zine can be found on my page <A
href=3D"
http://www.fantastictool.net"=
>http://www.fantastictool.net</A>.
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=
=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #=
000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">-=
---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4=
e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=3Dprima=
rch_at_... href=3D"mailto:primarch@...">Peter
Ramos</A> </D=
IV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetepic_at_yahoo=
groups.com
href=3D"mailto:netepic_at_yahoogroups.com">netepic_at_yahoogroups=
.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, Fe=
bruary 10, 2002 12:06
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>=
Subject:</B> Re: [NetEpic ML]
webside/technical problems</DIV>
<DI=
V><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV=
><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DAria=
l size=3D2>Tom is in the middle of fixing all that. I will
be contacti=
ng him so as to try to learn Frontpage and try to update it
too.</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>�</DIV>
<DIV><=
FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D=
"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000=
000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">--=
--- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e=
4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=3D=
ce.de_at_... href=3D"mailto:ce.de@...">christian
danckworth</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetepic=
_at_yahoogroups.com
href=3D"mailto:netepic_at_yahoogroups.com">netepic_at_yah=
oogroups.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> =
Saturday, February 09, 2002
6:47 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: =
10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NetEpic ML]
webside/technical problems<=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hi -</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i wanted to "convice" epic=
40.000 players by
showing/ giving them the url <A
href=3D"ht=
tp://www.netepic.org">www.netepic.org</A> - but they could not
downl=
oad the rules and most of the other stuff...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>greetz</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial siz=
e=3D2>cd</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2>-------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>ch=
ristian
danckworth<BR>miniature-design<BR><A
href=3D"http://w=
ww.fantastictool.net">
http://www.fantastictool.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<=
DIV>�</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fantastictool<BR>p.=
o box 55 02 03<BR>10372
berlin/germany</FONT></DIV><BR><BR><TT>To un=
subscribe send e-mail to:
netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com</TT> <BR><=
BR><TT>Your use of Yahoo! Groups
is subject to the <A href=3D"http:/=
/docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</A>.</TT> <BR><=
/BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><TT>To unsubscribe send e-mail
to: netepic-unsubsc=
ribe_at_egroups.com</TT> <BR><BR><TT>Your use of Yahoo!
Groups is subject=
to the <A href=3D"
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo!
Terms of =
Service</A>.</TT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><TT>To
unsubscribe send e-mai=
l to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com</TT>
<BR><BR><TT>Your use of Yahoo=
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"=
>Yahoo! Terms of Service</A>.</TT>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1B1AD.885B54F0--
Received on Sun Feb 10 2002 - 01:59:53 UTC