This does not solve the problem. Even "non codex chapters" are Space Marines, and to some degree, they follow the codex astartes. Note that except for SW which have a completely different company organization, the rest only differ slightly from the codex.
This variance has increased as GW has seen that differentiation of different chapters brought an increase of sales. As most of this variance came from WH40k, it's quite annoying the interest from GW on rising the stats of the different chapters because...anyone has seen GW redefining any army for poorer stats without renewing the whole game?
But, as a matter of fact, I don't like so much special rules for Black Templars, White Scars and so on...because this will bring a kind of "GW sickness" where some armies are "overfluffed" and some others "underfluffed" or with no Fluff at all. Is everybody willing to do ten different types of Squat army? or ten Craftworlds? or ten Tyranid bio-critters variant mutations?
Perhaps, we have to be a little more sensible with the extend of the fluff and special units. How many different units will the SM have? and da Orks? and the Nids?
A year ago I was bothering with the fact that Squat army was always the same army on tabletop. The same units, not because they were the best, but because they were so few and without medium level units (they were too good or useless) that there was only of choice for an army. So...
I understand Yar's POV to a point, because a SM army, with all chapters available will have almost as different units to choose as two (or three) other armies. This might be not fair. I think that as long as the point costs remain tuned with the power of the units, there is not much of a problem. Just add more variance to the units available to other armies and it's ok.(As an example, you only have thunderers as Squat Heavy Infantry, then add Stormers which is another squat heavy infantry unit with the equivalent of the previous in another terms i.e. 2 dice 50 cm 5+ -1 Ignore Cover -50 points)
But which is not fair at all (and also nonsense) is that the most flexible, fast and agile attack force in the universe have the same problems to battle together as if they were fighting with IG stunties. While Khorne and Slaanesh keep being allowed as the same army and Blood Axes can be part of the same army as fundamentalist Snakebites, Blood Angels and Ultramarines are treated ONLY as allies???????? no no no no...
Albert
----- Original Message -----
From: Millett, George
To: 'netepic_at_yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [v5.0] SM Army building
How about a compromise
For the Codex chapters do it like you suggest and allow them to freely mix
but with the non codex chapters like Dark Angels, Space wolves and Blood
Angels counting as allies.
And the non codex chapters able to take formations from their Successor
chapters if there are any as standard and from the codex chapters as
Standard
G
-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Farr� Benet [mailto:cibernyam_at_...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:58 PM
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] [v5.0] SM Army building
Hi,
As I understand it, SM chapters are used, and often do, fight alongside
other chapters. Taking into account also that some chapters are almost
equal, i.e. follow the codex astartes, probably they wouldn't have any
problem to fight together. If we apply this rule, you should only choose a
Chaos power, an ork clan, an Eldar Craftworld, and so... and any other
troops even from the same race, should be treated as allies.
In the other hand, the armies of the imperium (from 2nd edt) state quite
clearly that "The lists [of companies] represent Chapters at their
'stand-by' strength. In time of war more troops are routinely added and this
will obviously change the list and lift many of the restrictions.". This
leads to the next conclusion: You have unlimited acces to company cards for
the same chapter which solves the problem of 10k+ battles.
As this is really cheesy, I accept that the list of "stand-by" chapter
should be used. But this doesn't forbid a simultaneous attack from different
chapters. It's very unusual that a SM chapter sends more than three
companies to a battle. The chance of suffering a so heavy loss for a Chapter
would forbid the use of large numbers burt in the most important battles.
The imperium usually send two or three companies from each of the closest SM
chapters to the battle planet, thus resulting in the cooperation of forces
with the same "art of war", fighting with different coloured armour.
What I'm trying to explain is that, IF two (or more) chapters which follow
the same standard (the codex ISO-Astartes) cannot act as a whole army HOW
could cooperate in a same army a blood axe mob with Bad Moons? How can pink
horrors fight along side Juggies without fighting between themselves? And SM
are treated as allies? come on...
For me it's absolutely nonsense splitting the SM army in one army for each
chapter.
Albert
Just a final note: In SM 2nd edition IG, TL and SM could even be mixed
without restriction and this was specifically stated in the same book, so I
don't really find cheesy mixing SM chapters.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jarreas <mailto:jarreas_at_...> Underwood
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:netepic_at_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:50 AM
Subject: [NetEpic ML] [v5.0] SM Army building
The origional Space Marine book had an interesting concept that I'd like to
propose we bring back. It's the idea that there are only just so many
Companies in a Chapter, and they're of specific types, and you can't buy
more than that. I've looked at it and it really only comes into play when
you try to buy more than ten Companies, or more than one of the
supposed-to-be-rare ones like Terminators or Veterans.
So: when you build a SM army, choose a Chapter. That's your main one, and
if you want units from a second one they're consitered allies. Look at the
company list and choose which ones you want, then add support.
Note: Unless you're playing a 6,000+ point battle this format probably
won't make a difference. I propose it mainly in the interest of making the
army unique. Fluff and minor army-building restrictions will very much add
to the flavor of the army.
Anyway, here's what I've got so far. I wouldn't mind going back to the
system where each Chapter had a limited number of infantry *detachments*,
but I don't think it'd fly very well. If anyone interested I'll post them
as well. Comments?
-Yar
+++++
Purchasing a Space Marine Force
A Space Marine army is centered around the ultimate power-armored
infantryman, the Space Marine - everything else in the army supports the
Marine and helps him do his job. It's quite possible to field cavalry,
tanks, artillery and more, but the core of a Space Marine army is and
always will be, the grunt marine.
Every Chapter has a finite number of infantry companies, and these are of
specific types. A standard Chapter collects the best soldiers in it's 1st
Company, fielded as either Veteran Marines or Terminators. These are the
best of the best, and only one Company of Veterans or Terminators may be
fielded. Similarly, the tenth company contains the young and inexperienced
and is composed of Scout Marines.
The Ultramarines, for example, have one Veteran (or Terminator), four
Battle, two Tactical, one Assault, one Devastator and one Scout Company
available. You can choose to field as many of these that you want, choosing
and paying for the Company Cards as normal, but you cannot exceed the
number of each type of company available. This restriction does not apply
to Support Cards. That means that an Ultramarine army can never have more
than one Veteran Company, though Veteran Detachments may be bought as
support for any company.
In the Chapter descriptions, the restrictions on Infantry Support Cards
indicates what types of Infantry-class units it may take as support, not
what type of support it may take in general. For example, the Ultramarine
10th company is always composed of scouts - you may not take any other sort
of infantry other than additional scout detachments, but you may take
tanks, artillery, fliers and other units as support for the company.
Space Marine Tactics
Strike fast, strike hard and go for the objectives. Your combination of
mobility and firepower is head and shoulders above everyone else except the
Eldar, and they don't have any armor worth mentioning. Designate your
targets, get there and win the game before your opponent can deploy. Use
Thunderhawks to move Tactical Marines directly onto your objectives, or
Drop Pod your Assault Marines on top of his artillery. Put your cavalry out
in front to tie the enemy in place and deploy your Devastators into cover
to fire at the survivors next turn. Use your Flamer Marines to clear
fortifications and Fliers to reach any corner of the board by turn two. The
Land Raider is the best tank and second-best APC in the game - use it a
lot. Try the custom missions and scenarios as well - you can customize a
Space Marine force to be exactly what you need to get the job done.
Example: Ultramarines
Company Type Infantry Support Card Restrictions
First Veteran or Terminator Only Veteran or Terminator Detachments
2nd Battle Any
3rd Battle Any
4th Battle Any
5th Battle Any
6th Tactical Any
7th Tactical Any
8th Assault Only Assault Detachments
9th Devastator Only Devastator Detachments
10th Scout Only Scout Detachments
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Received on Wed Jun 12 2002 - 14:39:17 UTC