Hi,
The balance og cost/quality is part of what has kept Slann unbalanced IMO.
The cost hasn't been high enough compared to the quality of the units. I'd
like to see most of these changes applied without any cost reductions. If we
change both parameters I don't think we'll get any closer. Were just
shifting the problem. I say, lets keep the prices for a while, and test the
army for 10 or so battles (Much gaming ahead Rune!!!!) Then, take a second
look on the prices!!!
Ok I agree with Slann flyer repair, I've just pictured it wrong!
Nils
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Ramos [mailto:primarch_at_...]
Sent: 10. februar 2001 19:39
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Return of the slann
Hi!
I agree in theory, but id really like to see how this would be done.
Also, remember that everybody hasnt got ALL of the different exodite,
necron and slann figures. Ive based my purchases on the 1.0 list, and
would really hate to find that id have to spend another $200 to buy
more units, or to see units i already have incompatible with my other
units.
Very important point. I will list what would tentatively consist of each
army list and we can all input what units can overlap and which can't, so as
to validate everyones present collections.
Well, i agree that there should be weapon conformity. Some units, like
the Vanguards, will have to have their prices adjusted though..
Most certainly. The exodus will need the larger points reductions, but ture
slann infantry will probably be reduced 50-100 points. As with the army list
a full list of slann costs will be listed again for discussion.
GREAT MAGUS
Many problems with the powers too overblown.
I really havnt noticed this at all. Besides, there are plenty
of psychics/magicians which have are more powerful. Chaos
magi come to mind :)
In practice its not so much the power on its own, but the combination with
some tactics that make it alittle overwhelming. Note the power are still
strong, but there is a chance of failure, albiet small rather than no chance
of failure.
Subjugation, this power permits double actions (a big no,
no), the power
should read "affects unit that has not been activated", still
powerful,
but within reason.
This is a given..
Nullify psychic, this is an automatci power, too good, power
successful
on roll of 3+, still good but now within reason.
One word : Librerian. This guy stops ALL psychic attacks if the
roll is made (1d6+2 isnt it? The opponent rolls 1d6?). Ive always
wondered what would happen if a Librerian met a Great Mage and
both used their nullify powers to nullify the others nullify attempt :)
The librarian can't "stop" psychic attacks, he can battle a psyker directly.
The two powers do two different things. The librarian tries to destroy the
psyker where as the magus eliminates spell effects in play or otherwise.
Lets say a eldar warlock cast eldritch strom, the magus can roll a 3+ and
nullify it. He does attack the warlock like a librarian would, just the
power. No other unit in epic an dissipate powers, its a really good power,
too good to be automatic. Just think, he could dissipate, storms, psychic
locks, dominatrix shield, tzeentch vortex, and a lot more.
His CAF is reduced to +4, he doens't really fight much, his +1
initiative is substituted with a +2 bonus for warp jumps,
thats his job
after all. Attack dice is 1 with a 4+ to hit.
Hmm...this is pretty drastic. He used to be able to defend himself
if he moved around. Now he's reduced to a "stand in cover" unit.
I really dont like this idea...
He's the CAF of a librarian, thats pretty good, also remember he has
battlesuit armor to jump pack around the table. Also he will get the +2 to
warp jump rolls for accompanying units. Imagine this guy leading some necron
assault units.... He's got a lot of good stuff, too high a CAF makes it too
good. Besides he's not supposed to be on his own, but supported.
Remember to adjust the cost...
I think the cost before they went up would be good.
Ive never even used the scarabs :)
Beleive me you didn't miss anything, way too fiddly.
The CAF changes have been tested and raiders will have a +1 CAF and
assaults +3. Remember their powers make their CAF higher than
just this
number. Raiders are shooters so their to hit stays at 4+.
If you're going to do this, id like to see a save modifier on the
raiders weapons. They are, as you say, shooters. I also think
that Necrons should have higher breakpoints due to their nature.
I agree here, a -1 modifier is in order no doubt. Also the break point
should be higher since they dont suffer morale, sort of like squat break
points, but ONLY for necron infantry not vehicles or others. The cost would
remain the same.
Necron lord CAF is +5, then again with standard necron powers
make this
guy as good as a terminator HQ.
Regenerate does not work in close assault.
Necron dreadnought are units of 3 and their cannon stats are, 50cm, 1
attack dice, 4+ to hit, -2 modifier.
Necron vehicles, the changes are mostly to conform with
standarization
of miniguns and a 4+ to hit "cap" on main guns, attack dice and
modifiers remain the same, so does "repair".
The cubekeepers CAF is off it should be +1.
Ok, but the cost should come down..
Again we will re-evaluate all cost. On a glance I think all will go down at
least 50 points maybe even 100 in the case of units that had to hits of 3+
and now are 4+.
I'd like to make one more comment on the changes. When i first saw
the Slann, i thought : "damn, here's the army i always wanted to
play! Extremely good, pricey units. Quality, not quantity".
So, why did they change? Why not up the cost until they're fair?
They've been steadily reduced, instead of upping the cost, which
is they road id rather have taken. If the cost is right, there
has to be a point where quality and quantity balance. Of course,
im just one person, and my personal preferences dont count much
in the grand Epic scheme, but i really liked the whole "elitism"
idea (and no, im not a Nazi ;). Sure, they are still good, but for
me the thrill is gone. I guess Epic is based on numbers, and there
really isnt a place for a small but elite army. Strategy wise, its
much harder to play a small army, which i a!
!
!
lso like...
Point taken. Like I said I've seen ost of this in action and your units are
still VERY effective. Wait til you use the newer warp jump rules, while
risky, imagine a slan mage in mech armor leading a mech unit with its +2
bonus, pretty long jumps, You might lose some, but you have the legendary
slann precision and deep attack that no army has. The CAF on the necron
units with their innate powers make them equivalent of higher CAF unit. Even
raiders are a match for roughriders and bikes and only trolls and such can
hope to defeat assault necrons. With the increased break point you get the
desired effect of hard hitting troops that last a long time.
Necron vehicles are virtually the same.
Uping the cost runs into the problem of too small armies. After all you want
to feel like you indeed have an army not a skirmish force. Still their
armies are pretty small, that hasn't changed at all. The changes, with
exception of the warp jump rules are more cosmetic than anything else. The
still play the same and the tactics are the same (some work even better
now).
Trust me, I want to keep their "feel" as much as you do, because I too am
heavily invested in collection their army (35000+ at this point!). But at
the end of the day though I dont want anyone complaining about cheesiness
and such. I realize you cannot please everyone, but the complaints given and
more importantly the resolutions are VERY reasonable. Also note on certain
points I will not budge, like repair for necron filers, as I say "a necron
is a necron" whether it flies or not.
Try out the changes, you'll be pleased and when you slay your enemies before
you they can only envy your generalship. Cries of "too good" will have no
validity anymore since most of these changes were suggested by non-slann
players themselves. Besides its sweet to kick ass with suggestions the enemy
has made!!
I will soon post the prosed units for exodus and necron with the proposed
points cost.
Thanks for the input!!
Peter
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Received on Mon Feb 12 2001 - 07:23:28 UTC