> Hi!
>
> Karlsen Rune wrote:
>
> > Yes, you're right, im talking about the lure of slaanesh.
> > But, as far as i know, there isnt a moral check. At least,
> > the legion which gets the card doesnt have a check.
> > Thats the way its been played at least. I dont doubt
> > that ive been screwed over by the chaos players,
> > since i really dont know that much about how the army
> > works. I mean, ive read the rules, but ive not
> > memorized them :)
>
> The chaos marine legion gift card, when used, is automatic in effect,
> but effects ONE unit as per its orders within 25cm range. The
> primarch
> fulgrim power requires morale checks, but can affect more units.
So, by ONE unit, you dont mean a detachment, you mean one stand?
If so, then i agree that the power is OK. As it is now, as far
as chaos goes, when it says unit, we've (well, not me:)interpreted that
as a detachment. Imagine my horror when he took over a detachment of
necrons, charged another necron detachment with them, wiped them
out, played bloodrage on the detachment, then moved and killed
my vanguard mech who was holding an OP.
> I have seen it all as far as chaos. Its one of the armies i play more
> frequently. For every one player who says chaos is hard to
> beat with "x"
> army, another tells me he can't win a game with chaos because
> they are
> weak.
>
> The main problem is not all the cards but the precious few "real good
> ones" in the deck and their interpretation. I'm going to assume the
> chaos cards are given out randdmly as per teh rules and the
> chaos player
> is not "selecting" them. If not theres your first major problem.
They are indeed randomly selected. Of course, when you get 19-20
cards in a 5K game, you are bound to get a few good ones, which
i dont mind, as long as their rules are clarified and balanced.
> > This is only one of the things i find strange about some
> > chaos powers. Like the way some dont discriminate between
> > good units or lousy ones. The burning bodies card,
> > for example. Since its a non-physical psychic card,
> > it doesnt differenciate between units. No matter if
> > they are 0 CAF infantry with no save which are
> > a dime a dousin, or Vanguards with 4+ fixed save.
>
> Why should they discrimiate? I have have a saying for this "magic is
> magic and it affects anything". Most of the powerful magic
> affects the
> mind/soul so armor doesn't amount to much. Those powers that
> grant saves
> and have modifiers are thwarted by fixed saves. So powers DO
> discriminate, BUT it depends which you are talking about.
Because the cards that dont discriminate are potential gamekillers
imho. Take a 4K game, Chaos VS. Slann. I have my Vanguards
in a building (they cost 400). He plays the burning bodies
card and rolls a 5. Gone. 10% of my army wiped out with no
save. And the roll he makes isnt a save as Nils calls it,
since it doesnt base its roll on the unit affected.
> > These cards may not be that valuable when playing
> > against f.ex IG, they are indeed game killers when
> > played against the Slann. Not to mention that
> > every time we play chaos, there are A LOT of discussions
> > about rules and powers. The result is always : "Can
> > affect any unit" or "Can be played at any time".
> > I agree its in chaos' nature to be unpredictable,
> > but if they were this good, they'd have overrun
> > the universe a long time ago....Who can stand a chance
> > except those who have units like the astropath?
>
> Thats the point fight power with power. If you battle chaos
> without even
> one psyker your asking for trouble. Even one gives you that certain
> edge. Do you absolutely need it to win? No. But then you must come up
> with different ways to deal with different strategies.
Its not easy to make a strategy against an enemy which
can potentially adjust to any situation...
> > Our chaos player has also adopted a very good strategy
> > against us. He simply hides his demons, so that
> > we cant take any cards away from him, and use
> > his legions and juggers to attack. VERY effective
> > in conjunction with some of the awesome "no save, no how"
> > powers/cards. I've pointed out that a demon would
> > probably not hide behind buildings, and would certainly
> > not retreat into the setup zone to hide behind a
> > building. He certainly agrees to this, but there are
> > no rules against this, and wont admit that its
> > cheesy. Its in fact a very sound tactic! Never mind
> > that the demons behave like cowards :)
>
> Some chaos players do this, I dont find it distressing,
> actually I like
> it, because when they hide they can use some of their powers
> due to lack
> of LOS, more importantly most of their powers are short ranged, so if
> they are not being used agressively they will never be used
> against my
> main line hanging back shooting.
>
> Ask Darius and Ed how I play my greater demons, they never
> hide, better
> to use its awesome powers once and then die, to hide and not
> use it at
> all, its a waste. This style of play rarely influences the number of
> cards I have in my hand, becasue I am willing to let a demon
> die, rather
> to expend cards i need elsewhere.
> The jugger/bloodletter assault are all too familar to me and
> very easily
> swept aside with water ever army you use, here the simple do
> and donts:
>
> Against juggers
> 1. hide in terrain they cant go in namely buildings, it
> doesn't matter
> how good they are if they can't get you
Hey presto, our chaos player pulls out a burning bodies card.
No need to go near that building again :)
> 2. shot them long before they reach you. Its a common mistake to wait
> when they are in charging distance to fire at them. Make them your
> targets with barrages or whatever you got from the get go.
> The less they
> are before they reach you the better.
Hey, just hide them in woods/behind a building in round one,
play long legs on them and watch your units die :)
> 3. sacrificial lamb- commonly players use their fast attack
> vehicles in
> predicable forward rushes. Why not keep them in reserve until
> they are
> in range and charge THEM first. You may not breal them, but
> its another
> turn they dont move forward and you shot them to pieces,
> especially on
> advance fire after the fight is over
This actually might work :)
> 4. fighting withdrawl- use units with a fair amount of firepower and
> range, shoot on advance then move on advance backwards. It
> will give you
> at least one turn bonus for shooting at them. It takes a frontline
> jugger 3 turns to cross the 80cm that separates you, make it pay for
> advancing.
Yes, this might also work, although my HW units with short range
will suffer because of this-
> Against bloodletters
> 1. use weapons that fire in the movement phase or orders
> phase like the
> drop pods or wave serpent, even if you get ONE, they can't break
> coherency with the regenerating unit, since it is not "dead".
> This stops
> them for one turn, while you turn up the heat.
This is also a good tactic against Necrons :)
Doesnt work for Slann, since they dont have anything that
can fire that far in the movement phase.
Speaking of which, can psychers use any of their powers
at any time, or only when activated in FF/AF?
> 2. snap fire, I know you dont use it, but its the single most easiest
> way to stop them while moving.
Yep, and this is exactly why we'll never use it. My group
has decided they dont want this, its a "detriment" to
the game and only "takes away" from their armies...
I saw many SF opportunites yesterday which might have turned
the tide somewhat.
> 3. you can mix in some of the above "jugger" tactics too
>
> >
> > Like the game we played yesterday. Slann/SM vs. Chaos and
> > Renegade armies. After 2 rounds, Chaos 104? Slann/SM 46 i
> > think.. Both armies made mistakes, and they had quite
> > a few lucky dice rolls (like taking out a scout titan
> > with 3 shots from HW infantry. BUT, its just too good
> > when they can charge an OP, make the unit invis after CC,
> > and noone can shoot in. And take out a titan in one
> > average rolled shot. And take over a necron detachment
> > after the overtakers had moved (no save of course,
> > why would there be any, they're "chaos powers" after
> > all), then play a chaos card on that very same detachment
> > (after CC) and charge 10 more cms to another detachment.
> > One by one, they're not gamekillers. Together, they
> > are. With chaos cards, you can always adjust. They're
> > more than equalizers. Before i played chaos, i saw
> > the discussions going on on this list, but i never
> > really took any notice of them. Now i understand what
> > they were all griping about..
>
> I repeat, they are getting their cards randomly..right? You seem to
> mention the same powers each and every game. Out of a deck of
> 42 cards
> ther are only 12 cards that good, to get them in every game you have
> mentioned is odd....
Well, he didnt get the burning bodies card :)
> Still, I dont see the problem, but I think its more your lack of
> exposure to certain "deadly" combinations. The
> "charge-win-close-combat-and-use-another-card-to-fight-again-o
> r-become-insivible"
> ploy is well known to me. Only ONE unit can do it, because the cards
> will be discarded afterwards. The best defense is to avoid
> being in the
> situation to begin with. He can only do this to you in open ground or
> other terrain the juggers can move around, so dont dump
> troops in such a
> place. I usually use bait, leave one such unit in an
> objective in open
> ground, and lots of firepwoer in surrounding terrain (well
> farther than
> 10cm). He could still go invisible fine, but remember an
> invsibile unit
> CANNOT act in any way after the power takes affect. So just roll in a
> friendly unit and contest teh objective, its neither his or
> yours. The
> list of anti-tricks is long, but its a matter of your
> familiarity with them.
Once again, you say ONE unit. He uses it on a detachment.
Is this incorrect?
> > The good news is that we all agreed the Slann look good
> > now. We thought the necron titan is overpriced at 750,
> > but thats just after one game. Against another army,
> > it might be more balanced. I can certainly understand
> > why noone wanted to play against the Slann before
> > they were balanced (except Nils of course, he loves
> > to be the underdog), i have just the same feeling
> > against chaos. I cant imagine how its possible to
> > beat chaos with the orks for example...
>
> Good, I thought as much, As for chaos, your "new" to them, it
> takes some
> getting used to their "tricks" once thats out of the way,
> counterploys
> become easier to deal with.
Yes, it may seem that chaos can be beaten, specially if
what you say about ONE unit is not one detachment. Then
the chaos cards arent that cheesy. What about bloodrage?
Does that affect ONE unit as well, or a detachment?
Rune
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Received on Mon Mar 05 2001 - 08:00:11 UTC