Re: [Epic] Re:

From: Cameron Bentsen <stu7i95_at_...>
Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:23 EST

In message "", you write:

> At 04:14 PM 16/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >Excerpts from Epic: 16-Jan-97 [Epic] Re: by Aaron P Teske_at_...
> >> Yo! (And I might just do some practice runs of my own, given a little
> >> time....)
> >
> >Actually, since I don't want to work on homework right now (it's not due
> >'till Monday anyway), let's do a theoretical run. Take your standard
> >board setup, 120cm wide, and ignore the width for now. Deploy three
> >Reavers and two Colossi on opposite sides. For the sake of arguement,
> >we assume both players knew what was up here, and set themselves up
> >accordingly: the Colossi on their front line, the Reavers at the back of
> >their deployment zone, about 20cm apart.
> >
> >Two Reavers have 1x Quake Cannon (1 shot, 100cm, 3+ to hit, -3 save mod)
> >+ 1x Volcano Cannon (1 shot, 100cm, 3+ to hit, -4 save mod) + 1x Gatling
> >Blaster (4 shots ea, 75 cm, 5+ to hit, -1 save mod). The third has 3x
> >Quake/Volcano Cannon. (If you want to arm them with one-shots, the
> >battle is either over very quickly or, if the Reavers are unlucky and
> >miss, very tight on the Reavers. Arming them all with 3x Volcano Cannon
> >also turns the balance more to the Reavers, but is a somewhat
> >"unrealistic" loadout IMO -- they have no even moderately effective
> >anti-infantry capability.) The Colossi, being Colossi, have 8x
> >battlecannon (75cm, 4+ to hit, -2 save), one Doomsday Cannon (long
> >range, d6+3 BPs, -3 save) and four missiles (100cm, 6 BPs (4+ to hit),
> >-1 save). We ignore the 50cm Thunderer and 15cm bolters.
> >
> >Now then, the Squat have 25cm to cover, three turns of movement, before
> >their main guns -- the Battlecannon -- come into play. Before that,
> >they're likely to get only two hits a turn out of four shots/turn, one
> >missile each and one DoomsDay blast. If the Squats are quite lucky, the
> >receiving Titan doesn't recover any void shields and might actually die
> >on the third turn, but I doubt it; on the other hand, if the Squats are
> >*really* lucky they could hit with all four shots each turn and knock
> >out one Titan on the second turn and another on the third, leaving the
> >mopping up quite easy. However, that's ignoring the Reaver's fire....
> >
> >Now then, the three Reavers have seven Quake/Volcano Cannon between
> >them, which is seven 3+ shots each turn. 7 * (4/6) = 4.67 hits a turn,
> >so in the first two turns (when all three reavers *will* get to fire)
> >they'll get an average of 9-10 hits. Since the odds favor one, maybe
> >two shields regenerating, all those will go onto one Colossus, which is
> >very likely to die. (5+ saves, if you fire the guns intelligently.)
> >Then it's one unwounded Colossus vs. three Reavers, one of which is
> >likely at 1-2 void shields. Then the Gatling blasters open up, possibly
> >dropping multiple void shields, which makes the work of the Q/V Cannons
> >much easier.
> >
> >If the Reavers have all Quake & Volcano Cannon, one Colossus is dead at
> >the end of the second turn, and the other is likely down some shields --
> >an even worse situation. The possibilities of one-shots aren't really
> >worth commenting on, though if all the one-shots miss the Reavers are
> >down significantly in terms of firepower. (Which is why I don't like
> >one-shots to begin with....)
> >
> >Refutations?
> Yes, please...
> (Although I'm still stunned by the widespread agreement as to the lack of a
> void shield saving throw against the one shots. This whole conversation is
> pretty much moot as only a very brave player would field squats against
> imperial or chaos armies...)

The reason everyone is in agreement about the lack of saving throws against
one-shots is because that's what the rules are! You only get void shield
"interference" psychic saving throws against non-physical psychic attacks
from psykers.

BTW, Perrin, you were right to point out that non-damaging and non-physical
are not necessarily the same. I should have used the latter, rather than the
former, when establishing my point the first time around.

As for whether a Squat player facing off against an Imerial player is brave,
the answer is: hardly! First off, no-one is forcing you to take a Chassis
vehicle in your Squat army, and one-shots are pretty useless against the
cheaper models like tanks & infantry. Secondly, unless your opponent is
completely predictable in his army selection, you have no way of knowing
whether he will take any Titans with one-shots at all, let alone a cheesy
number of them. Thirdly, so what if it comes to pass that he does destroy your
Chassis vehicle with a one-shot? This doesn't eliminate your whole army - go
wax his Titan with a group of guild bikers or something. There are lots of ways
to take out Titans.

> I have never seen a Reaver deployed on the back line before, but for the
> sake of argument we will assume that the Imperials do this. The Units are
> 100cm apart. The squats drive off to the side or even advance in a rearward
> direction to make the range a little over 100 cm and rain barrage death upon
> the helpless imperial idiots. When the Reavers decide to advance, the
> squats close the extra 10 cm and crush them with their range 75 weapons (and
> since the imperials cannot advance and then first fire, I would expect two
> titans to bite the biscuit before they get a shot off!)

Bullshit. I'll assume we're talking about the 2 Collossi vs. 3 Reavers example
that Aaron described here. Firstly, the 2 barrages a pair of Collossi can
generate will certainly not take down 3 Reavers anytime soon without help from
the battlecannon. Secondly, if the Collossi retreat, the Reavers only have to
advance enough to reach range 100. Thirdly, if the Imperials are at range 100,
they don't have to first fire; the Squats can't effectively respond except with
two barrages, so it doesn't matter if they fire last. If I were starting on my
baseline, I'd probably place advance orders for one or two of the Titans just
so that, if the squats move or have moved outside rage 100, I can follow up
just enough to get back in range again.

> IF the forces start at a more reasonable separation of 80 cm, AND there is
> no cover to break line of sight to one or more of the titans (which will
> probably have FF orders) things will be a little different.
> The squats advance to within 75 cm and open up with a single one shot
> missile, their 8d6 range 75 hit on a 4+ and finally their save at -3 barrage
> weapon.
> Of course the Iron Eagles advance to somewhere that they can get side shots
> on the reavers...

If there is no cover to break line of sight, the Imperials have no reason to
start at the front of their baseline, and in fact would be foolish to.
Therefore, the gyrocopters are basically useless, since they can't get behind
the Titans. If they advance they will get gunned down by the range 75 gatling
blasters, which can't fire at the Collossi that are 100 cm away.

> (If we ignore the presence of support units, the gyrocopters can advance the
> full 80cm and be behind the titans fire arcs, or if we include support units
> in the equation, a detachment of 3 iron eagles charges closer to the enemy
> than the COMMAND iron eagles from the Collosi...)
> Initiative plays a decisive roll as will dice karma. Two reavers packing
> optimum weapon packs for squat busting (2x Gattling blasters or 2x
> Turbolaser and a Volcan or Quake cannon) will only score about 7.5 hits, and
> if the final Volcano/Quake cannon misses, or if the squats win initiative,
> (or if the Reavers pack 3 of the 100cm weapons) it looks pretty sad for the
> reavers.
> Obviously, the squats pack enough fire power to down the Reavers shields,
> and if the -3 barrage doesn't do a hit (I would target the titan's largest
> weapon, but there is a good argument for the "groin" leg location) the
> gyrocopter popping the reactor from the side is reasonably likely to finish
> the poor thing.
> If the squats win initiative they could reasonably expect to kill (or remove
> the biggest weaon from) two titans before the third titan may or may not
> kill one SHV. On turn 2 it is all over for the remaining titan.
> If the Titans win initiative, they will probable still lose 1 titan while
> killing 1 SHV and on turn 2 they will probably lose another before maybe
> killing the other SHV. If the (lone) titan fails to kill the SHV in turn 2,
> the titan dies in turn 3.
> (And the gyro copters have a chance of killing the titan in turn 3 anyway.)

All this assumes you're starting in battlecannon range, which if each side
knows what's going on is unlikely at best. Even so, Titans have been known to
survive quite a pounding, and it seems to me that you're overestimating your
ability to kill them.
Received on Fri Jan 17 1997 - 16:23:00 UTC

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