Re: [Epic] Comments & observations on Epic 40k.

From: Michael the Liu <mikethel_at_...>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 03:03:13 -0600 (CST)

>> IT'S WAR ON A WHOLE NEW SCALE!

>Umm, err, what was Epic then?

Umm, err, well, if you overinterpret this statement, it could really bodes
extremely ill. :)

But then, if they do keep their promise to us to keep the old figs
compatabile (I guess they forgot about the Knights and those old Space
Dwar...Squats), we could gain a real advantage on the battlefield. Those
new figs seem to run a real trend towards being bigger and we could use
terrain more effectively for cover. :P

>I question how different ANY GW games could be from each other. Let alone
>two games by most of the same people about the same subject, using (most)
>of the same models...

Don't quote me on this, but I think they're dropping most of the models not
in 40k. That would explain why the plastics are cheaper now - they don't
have to include as many types. Funny that they would choose to abstract so
many of the vehicles, but infantry types actually become more detailed in
some cases, such as now being able to get Blood Axe Commandos. Bodes very
ill. The ability to play 40k without the hassle of amassing such a large
army huh? Yeah, real cool.

>> It has been changed to reflect the way armies work
>> in the 41st Millennium, and more importantly changed to reflect the way
>> Warhammer 40,000 works.

>Oh yeah, 40K "works".

I suppose from a GW point of view it does. If more people will pay money
for the ability to cheese out an army, then whose GW to say to them that
they can't? I suppose almost everyone except the people who just want a
decent wargame are getting what they want.

>> Now, instead of fielding nameless detachment
>> cards you can build an army that reflects the army you play in Warhammer
>> 40,000, bringing a whole new aspect to the game.

Nameless detachment cards. How terrible. It would be so much nicer if I
could refer to them but easy to remember names like, "the detachment being
led by Ragnar Blackmane" or "the detachment being led by Abaddon, who
incidentally has an odd habit of showing up in an astoundingly high
proportion of games." It sure would be cool if we were limited to only 50%
of our points going to characters though, help keep it balanced, like in
40k. :) Heh, can't wait for that new aspect of the game.

>Maybe I'm just taking this game too seriously, but all of my Companies
>and detatchments have a place in the Regimental or Chapter organization,
>sometimes in some detail (like for my Knight Division, 55 Knights).

46 Knights for me I think. I think I'm going to cry.

>> BRILLIANT NEW MINIATURES

>Well, that's certainly better than "CRAPPY NEW MINIATURES". Though, I
>suspect "EXPENSIVE NEW MINIATURES" would be more accurate.

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, a local gaming store of mine seems to have
picked up a sheet somewhere detailing the way GWs planning on increasing
prices on minis.

>> One of the new game's most exciting aspects is the sheer volume of new
>> models being released. Each model is replete with detail and looks
>> absolutely amazing. You can field three or four tanks of the same type
>> without actually fielding the same model,

>umm... er... say again? Do two Leman Russes NEED to look different? Well,
>I'll take a wait and see attitude here. Maybe it will be cool.

Well, while they might now _need_ to look different, I just KNOW that the
new miniatures are going to be so FANTASTIC that I'm going to need to buy at
_least_ a detachment of each type of Leman Russ!! After all, half the fun
of the Games Workshop system of hobbies is collecting and paying my money
for miniatures, while the other half is the visual appeal of seeing the
minies on the tabletop!!! I suppose having a good wargame and well thought
out strategy is okay too.

Heh, back to the real world.

>> which not only makes it a more
>> interesting game, but more fun to paint!

>I'm not sure why this makes the game more interesting.

C'mon! What about the visual appeal, and the collecting, and the paying of
money?

>> Plus, the model designers are
>> striving to keep all the models in scale to each other, so now Super
>> Heavy
>> tanks actually look, well, super heavy.

>So now your old Super Heavy Tanks look, well, the wrong size.

Well, if it weren't for making our miniatures obsolete I would actually view
this as an improvement. In fact, I think I still do. Especially if I can
still use my old miniatures and hide my super heavies behind rocks that the
new ones would never fit behind. (wicked grin)

>> Even the Thunderhawk Gunship
>> looks like it could actually transport a detachment of Space Marines!

>At $14US each, I should hope so. The damn thing should paint my figures
>at that price. PS. Game note: I wish they'd change the T-hawk rules so
>that it could also carry Mole mortars, Rapiers, Tarantulas, and Thudd
>Guns. Space Marines have an easy way of getting troops down to a planet,
>but anything else has to walk (or take the dropship). Don't see why Heavy
>Support weapons couldn't softland in T-Hawks.

At $14 each, I had better darn well be able to personally climb into that
Thunderhawk and fly it onto the battlefield, using its guns to blow up my
opponents minis!

With regards to your game notes, I would agree with you, except that it's
already good enough for its points. Logic wise, I would completely agree
with your idea, and game wise I would too if its points were increased.

>> IT'S ALL COMING MARCH 31ST!!!

>Marketing guys said no dice on releasing it April 1st huh? :)

At the rate of an army every other month, that means due to Murphy's Law I
should be able to expect one of my two armies that will be present in the
new edition (Eldar, Chaos) to be ready by next February, while the Imperials
will have received approximately 19 armies by then, those being something
like the the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, the Blood Angels, the Space
Wolves, the Howling Griffins, the Imperial Fists, the Imperial Guard, the
Assassins, the Adeptus Arbites, the Space Wolves II, Catachan Jungle
Warriors, the Ice Warriors of Valhalla, the Atilian Rough Riders, the
Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Exploritarium, the High Lords
of Terra, and Space Wolves III. And then Epic 40k will be phased out for
the next edition.

>> That's right, this fantastic game will hit the shelves on March 31st, so
>> start gearing up!

Perhaps they mean start saving up. God knows its going to cost a small
fortune + your soul.

>Are all GW games "fantastic" even before anyone outside the company has
>played them. Next their going to start calling it a "classic", a week
>after its released.

And then the week after that they're going to phase it out and release their
new edition.

>> The Epic 40,000 boxed game is sure to go quick so make sure
>> you move fast; there will also be a ton of supporting releases. And, as
>> if that wasn't enough, every other month afterwards a new army will be
>> released so you won't have to wait long to start conquering the universe
>> with your favorite force!

By a ton of supporting releases I hope they mean minis, since they've stated
so many times that you're only going to need to boxed set to play.

>Well, unless your favorite force happens to be Squats. I'm guessing
>they'll hold back on them till they do them for 40k, and re-work who they
>are. That's the wonderfull thing about GW, their games exist in this
>Orwellian 1984-style universe where "history" can be a certain way for
>years, then, the Lords of Terra will declare someone an un-person and
>they'll disappear, or the history of the Horus Heresy will change
>overnight to god-knows-what... Needles to say, the ministry of Truth is
>busy in the 40k universe <sorry, the squats are evil mutants now, and our
>enemy, the eldar are our friends>. <rant mode off>

What about those poor knights? I can't see them getting into 40k, so I have
the terrible feeling they're gone for good.

"What ever happened to those brave knights who used to support us in combat
using their mighty suits of towering battle armor?"

"Knights? Who are knights?"

"But they have loyally supported us for the last 20,000 years!"

"What you speak is Heresy! The High Lords say there are no such things as
knights, so there are no such things as knights. Report yourself to the
nearest Inquisition branch office to have yourself terminated."

>> WHAT YOU GET
>> The game itself comes with tons of stuff! You get 2 huge armies of
>> Space Marines and Orks, complete with a large variety of forces (with
>> Tactical Squads, Scouts, Terminators, Bikes, Boarboyz, Nobz, Gretchin,
>> Stormboyz, Blood Axe Kommandos) and vehicles (Land Raiders,
>> Whirlwinds, Battlewagons, Stompas).

>I really don't need a "huge army" of Space Marines, thanks. (My space
>Marine Chapter is more than I'll ever get to use at once).

I really don't want or need a "huge army" of Space Marines _or_ Orks, thank
you. I'm happy with my Eldar, Chaos and Tech Guard armies.

>> You also get 3 big books
>> (Rulebook, Battle Book, & Armies Book),

>Good, I like big books -- I hope they meet the high mark set by 5th ed
>Warhammer. Graphically, GW is miles ahead of a lot of companies.

Yeah, that's definitely their strong point. I hope it'll be all color for
that price.

>> lots of really neat new building
>> ruins (no more hotels anymore - this is Stalingrad in WWII!),

>Ok. I have to look at this form a positive viewpoint -- I have 4 sets of
>Space Marine (bought them for a steal, used) so I have PLENTY of "hotels".
>Just hope their not just cardboard (the Titan Legion ones looked good, but
>kinda sucked in that regard.)

I've seen pictures of the new buildings. They look pretty sweet. Gothic.
Ruined. Perfect buildings for the wartorn galaxy of the 41st millenium that
knows only war.

>> 3-D Blast
>> Markers, Range Rulers (in metric, of course), special dice, templates,
>> Detachment sheets,

>I don't look forward to plotting an (old) 6000 point army stand by stand,
>vehicle by vehicle... But I'll withhold my opinion till we have a better
>idea of how the unit organization will work (in detail, that is).

Yeah, I'm skeptical here too, but I'll also withhold my opinion until I see
it, after which I'll scream in disgust and mail the list telling about how
bad it is.

>> 0350 EPIC 40,000 $69.99

>Standard price now.

Thought they said they weren't raising the price. (haha)

>> AND EVEN MORE!
>> All new models are coming the same time to support the launch of Epic
>> 40,000! All have been redesigned from the ground up by the Epic Design
>> Team (Tim Adcock, Jes Goodwin, Dave Andrews, Mike & Alan Perry,
>> and more) and ya simply gotta see them to believe them. Nuff said!
>> 3101 GREAT GARGANT $29.99
>> (Boxed set of 1 model)
>> 7101 WARLORD TITAN $29.99
>> (Boxed set of 1 model)
>> 4001 ELDAR WAR HOST $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)
>> 1001 SPACE MARINE BATTLE GROUP $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)
>> 1002 SPACE MARINE TANKS $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)
>> 3001 ORK BATTLE WAGONS $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)
>> 3002 ORK MOB $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)
>> 6001 TYRANID SWARM $9.99
>> (Plastic boxed set)

>I didn't think they were re-doing this one, maybe its just less sprues
>(gosh, I'm glad I stocked up).

Yeah, but I shiver to think what of mine will become obsolete.

>> 8705A IMPERIAL LEMAN RUSS BATTLE TANKS $8.99
>> (Three tanks per blister)

>"In three exciting poses!"

My, just thinking about these new minies makes my game seem more fun. How
often I've wished, "I love the high quality and brilliant worksmanship on my
beautiful Games Workshop miniatures, but I wish I could supplement the
collecting and viewing that is a crucial part of the Games Workshop system
of hobbies by paying more money for different poses of what is the same
miniatures!"

>> 8705B IMPERIAL HELLHOUND FLAME TANKS $8.99
>> (Three tanks per blister)
>> 8705C IMPERIAL BANEBLADE SUPER HEAVY TANK $11.99
>> (One tank per blister)

>It better be super, for $12.

Wow! To think I can mount a fantastic squadron of these awesome battletanks
for only thirty six dollars, plus tax! I'm saving up my money all ready!

>> 8705D IMPERIAL BASILISK ASSAULT GUNS $8.99
>> (Two tanks per blister)

>Self-Propelled artillary would be more accurate. This thing is too poorly
>armoured to engage the enemy in sight to sight.

I bet that they've dropped the manticore and the bombard since they aren't
in Warhammer 40k! They're similar enough to the basilisk in function that
they would have abstracted them if they weren't being dropped. (I mean
c'mon, they claim with abstraction that a Haruspex serves the same purpose
as a Trygon!)

>> 8701A SPACE MARINE VINDACATOR ASSAULT TANKS $8.99
>> (Three tanks per blister)
>> 8701B SPACE MARINE THUNDERHAWK GUNSHIP $13.99
>> (One Gunship per blister)

>It better be r-e-a-l-l-y big.

Like I said, I better be able to personally fly it onto the battlefield with
guns blazing. No, I better be able to commute to school in this thing, and
crush offending cars by landing it on them.

>> 8703A ORK WAR BUGGIES $8.99
>> (Four models per blister)
>> 8703B ORK BIG GUNZ $8.99
>> (Five models per blister)
>> 8704A ELDAR FALCON GRAV TANKS $8.99
>> (Three models per blister)

>I don't care how cool the model looks, I do NOT need any more falcons.

I've seen the new models (I'm one of the lucky few who managed to get one of
those 1996 complete Epic catalogues that showed the Ork flyers, new falcons,
vampire, exodites and some things I can't identify in the back). Frankly,
from the picture I think that the plastic one looks just as good. They made
the gun really short compared to the plastic mini (the gun doesn't extend
past the cockpit). Still, I'm considering getting 2 blisters so that I can
use them as Warlock transports, to easily distinuish the Warlocks.

>> 8704B ELDAR WAVE SERPENT TANKS $8.99
>> (Three models per blister)

Three? Well, here goes that custom detachment stuff now.

>> 8706A TYRANID DOMINATRIX $13.99
>> (One model per blister)
>> 8706B TYRANID HIVE TYRANTS $8.99
>> (3 models per blister)

>This one's a puzzler. The old one was a single model for $6.50, I'm
>venturing a guess these will be a tad smaller. Will make my old one's
>look REALLY mean though.

Still, maybe they won't mount its head into its shoulder this time. More of
that mysterious GW cutting prices again, this time by more than half! There
has to be a catch.

>Well, that's it. Like I've said before here, my opinion is that EPIC40K
>is just a new game (that happens to share a background and models with
>Epic SM). And I'll treat it as such, letting it stand on its own
>strengths and weaknesses. I know I'll continue playing Space Marine, but
>I hope that EPIC40K will grab my interest with the same intensity, because
>its fun. And that's what its about.

I'm hoping that Epic 40k is going to be good, I really am, as I would enjoy
playing a game that isn't on the backburner for once. However, I'm not
willing to place any bets on the fact that it'll be good, and if its not,
well Net Epic looks promising, and there's always Titan Legions. If it is
good I hope that it'll attract those few 40k players who are looking for a
good wargame and not a horde of munchkins looking for a good powergaming
experience.

Sorry if I've sounded _too_ overtly hostile. I'm just a little annoyed at
how much GW seems to brush us off, and how greedy and evil a company it is.

Michael the Liu
Received on Sat Feb 15 1997 - 09:03:13 UTC