Re: [Epic] RGMW Newsgroup.

From: John Chapman <john_at_...>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:26:20 +1100 (EST)

> ---------> Sure, but there was usually at least one jetbike detach waiting
> to jump in and mix up the CC. And charging a unit on FF is not a real good
> idea much of the time. If they were lucky, they got off a vortex or a
> plague, but not that often.
        Depended on initiative a lot. Move first and those jetbikes on charge
 got to sit there looking impotent. MOve second and they just didnt come (
actually that was probably the nastiest thing about Mr Chaos - he had the best
luck of winning initiative when needed :|.........). Dropping a thawk BEHIND
the first firers and then letting them charge in (hey the marines charged in
the shortest path - damn there were too many thawk owners in our group....)
made FF worthless - at least for the falcons/tempests. Usually the result was
most of the targets died. Then next turn of course the bikes had the option
do nothing and stay away or charge marines on FF who have no arc probs. And
assuming they lived its only an even fight btw pretty much even points units
(ok the bikes are a little cheaper). *sigh*
> Changing the pop-up rule does make a big difference, to Eldar more than any
> other army.
        depends what you mean by 'change' it was more 'interpret' as the rules
were somewhat ambigous in places- this being one of them.
> -------> all of the 4-stand CC specialist detachments were 150 points, so
> the cost is a pretty much a wash (I'll take 300 points of Scorps over 250
> points of Minotaurs most days as the extra dice means the second attacker
> has no advantage) The Banshees were weak against many Chaos troops - so
> don't take them. Harlies and scorps do fine. The advantage the Eldar CC
> units had wasn't so much their shoot ability (only harlies had it) but the
> fact that they had access to 25cm base move skimmers as transport units and
> so could get somewhere quick to use that CC ability. The knock on many of
> the Chaos troops is that they were also slow, but had no ranged attack and
> no transport vehicles to offset this weakness, nor were they especially
> cheap.
        Yeah he never TRIED for a scorp/minotaur match up unless he was
desperate. Trolls (when I was trying to kick them off objectives) was another
matter. First turn I roll in with scorps in say falcons and kill 4 trolls.
2 get back up. Next turn the 3 scorps score 3-1 odds. 4-5 trolls die 2-3 come
back 3 scorps are dead. As such we have 1 scorp left vs 5-6 trolls. If more
scorpion units turn up IM really asking to be plagued. Especially considering
the transports are also in range. Heck with regen even 300 points of scorps
will take turns to take out trolls.
> ---------> Agreed on the first two. The Psy Lance is Weak? It's a barrage
> template which has a 4+ chance to hit (on a Warlock titan) anything under
> it, no armor save,void shields do not stop it, daemons are automatically
        Hmmmmmmmm void shields did give a 4+ save against it
depending on whether you let the psy-lance or the TL rules take precedence.
And I always found titans worked better when they were armed to do one job.
Like 2 Pulsars , 2 Tremor Cannons , 1 Pulsar 1 Heat Lance (2 Las Cannon wings
a must here). Having 1 say pulsar and 1 PL didnt fit my theory of doing this.
2 Psy Lances and the titan suddenly looks horizontally challenged :).
> -------> Cards were handy, but use them freely in CC and suddenly those
> non-psychic shots start to hurt. The Eldar rarely had a problem
> concentrating force as the elites could be asissted by jetbike swarms to get
> the multiple attacker bonus's.
        True but under cover only 3 of the 5 swarms were useful. Damn were
jet bikes ever more useful than the more expensive vypers.

> -----> I hope you're not thinking it took some kind of munchkin force with
> 10 scorpion units or something...
         I WAS wondering a little :)

> --------> Ok, typical Eldar army in our neck of the woods:
> Wind Riders + Warlock, Spirit Host + Free Avatar, Falcon Host +Harlequins,
> Guardian Host + Free Scouts.
> You might see a Warlock titan, might see a phantom host depending on battle
> size. Exarchs are nice but at 100 pts per stand they're also absent from all
> but the biggest fights. In smaller fights we'd drop the guardians,
> sometimes they'd be replaced by a jetbike host due to player taste. The only
> thing you would see 3 cards worth might be prism cannons, though usually
> fewer were present. The avatar would be dumped for a warlock quite often
> also, against Chaos. Some players favored war walkers and would take 2-3
> cards worth of those.
        Hmm heres where we differ. I HATED the spirit host. First 2 games
I played against chaos he wrecked himself getting just enough objectives
and kill points to get close to the limit (I would have POUNDED him the next
turn with heaps of low strength units and few chaos cards) at about the 2nd
or 3rd turn. Hes sitting around looking desperately for a way to get a few
 extra points. Freaking Nurgles rotted the SH Warlock for 5 points and got
another 2-3 points worth of bystanders. 2 Times in 2 games this happened and
pushed him just over the limit. Only ever took the spirit host once more.
Must have been fate or something but a vortex that missed a titan rolled 10cm
into the middle of a forest and landed right on.............Game over AGAIN.
The same sort of problem stopped me taking exarchs.
The last was lucky the first 2 merely par for the course.Also I always thought
falcons did the same sort of job as war walkers merely much better.......
Free scouts - well that was common enough :).

> My standard deployment always included the 2 cards of 'weavers, 2 scorps,
> 1 harley, 1 reaper unit, 1 dragon unit (tank hunters transported by falcon),
> 1 vibrocannon unit, 1 set of nightwings, 1 set of walkers and 2 firestorms.
> The # of prisms would vary, as would tempests, but I don't think we were
> ever on the "cheese-meter"
        I always saw tempests as the ultimate target for THawked troops and
titans - had 3 , rarely used them.I preferred DA's to Dragons - falcons could
do the tank hunting themselves :).
> ------> yeah, I know. Keeps coming up somehow.
> I think our particular case of mutual befuddlement boils down to two things:
> 1) Different pop-up rules which drop the Eldar a notch IMO, making Chaos a
> notch more competitive indirectly.
        Yup there may have been a few others too.

> 2) Your guys found some way to make the Chaos grunts effective by getting
> them to the decisive point of the battle which I admit still baffles me. A
> 20cm move just ain't that good. Marines, sure - rhinos, land raiders,
> T-hawks, even deathdealers, but hoofing it : ) is just slow. Were you
> playing on a small table? ; )
        Well the table was about 250cm long by 115cm wide. The distance
between set up lines was about 75-80 cm (just under normal but not much).
Not wanting to have a large amount of worthless objectiveless ground in the
middle typically there were 3 objectives on each side and 2 in the middle.
Trolls and minos could easily (ie first turn) cover the ones on the chaos side.
 As for the middle - stretching it a bunch of minos (trolls were unreliable)
could make it by turn 2 - and really be there by turn 3 (most games tended
to go 3-4 turns). I never saw either unit get right up the back - that was
always left to marines.Still they could come into play on 4-5 objectives - which
 isnt too bad.

> 3) A greater emphasis on marine equipment - mainly in the case of the massed
> tarantula fire which only makes a difference given #1 above, as here they'd
> just be easy targets for falcons- which I admit we didn't use on that scale.
> One chapter, maybe two at most in one battle. and BTW, if more than 2 of
> anything is cheesy, tarantula-man is way over the mark...: )
        The marines definately gave chaos mobility they otherwised lacked. I
really really hated that Q&A that turned chaos from decent to gross (thanks
Mark Watts - amazing who was the chaos general in the Epic battles book - heck
it could have just been a ploy to sell more minis to chaos players too :) ).
        Heck even with your rules,assuming the geometry is right - points wise
a fair fight is 6 falcons vs 15! tarantulas. 6 Falcs go first - 12 Tarants
remain - which should blast just under 3 falcons on average - + whatever
they can get in advance fire. Not exactly a good trade (though hopefully the
falcons maeuverability should help reduce the number of T's firing back). It
wasnt just falcons they screwed up though - the tarantulas kept large areas
free of deathstalkers - which in turn helped GDs a lot. We normally didnt bitch
about stuff up to about 3 (though even 2 units of waveserpents was unpopular
as was more than 2 weirdboyz). Yes the chaos player stretched this the most.
There was an episode early on where we had 2 allied armies (4 players , 2 a side) . He turned up with 6 Tarantula batteries and 7 THawks. His partner saved
us the trouble of finding some big sticks and politely explained he wanted
some CHALLENGE in the game (quick army redesign followed). Usually 4 Tarantula
batteries and a few too many Thawks was the best we could talk him down to
(hey theyre so cheap-you can have 650 points of bikes why cant I have 650
points of .........). Also given the state of marine only armies our group
was inclined to let the marine player take a few more of given units of stuff
 than other armies could. Heck they needed it (and its not that they had that
much variety to begin with). So Mr 'I play a chaos marine army"kept bringing
that up as well(and didnt like the no troll , no demon , no chaos card why
the hell dont you just play marines and call them chaos marines suggestion
a few of us made :) ). Maybe we should have played him less and given him a
hint - but it was always too much fun when our all too rare victories
occurred (I was one of the better ones and was running at about 20-30%)......

> Chris Miller
> (again, no flames here)
Received on Thu Jan 01 1970 - 00:00:00 UTC

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