Re: [Epic] Titans and Eldar (looooong) (was: Titans and CC)

From: <duckrvr_at_...>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:11:44 -0600

At 07:06 PM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

> This is enough (from
>experience) to give you a *chance* of winning, and that is all you can
>ask for.

I would say you do have a chance, mostly because of the medics.

>The only thing I have *ever* seen vipers on advance orders do, is die like
>dogs during the FF phase.

Then someone is not using them properly.

>I think the biggest mistake you can ever make
>is to put your army on advace orders, the only thing that happens is you
>allow your opponent to inflict all of his casualties before you inflict
>yours.

Of course, if you have a largely skimmer force (like eldar) it also makes
you immune to close combat.

>I don't worry aboutcasualties because I know I will take them no matter
>what I do. The question becomes "what would I rather lose, assault and
>scouts, or devestators and titans?". Given that the assault force costs
>less, has a higher break (by far) and gives up fewer VPs, the answer is
>obvious.

I think you are underestimating the amount of firepower that 6,000 points of
eldar can pack. Frex:
2 windirder hosts
3 falcon hosts
6 aspects of various types
2 firestorms
2 doomweaver dets
2 wave serp dets
5 warlocks
1 spirit host
1 phantom titan w/ either tactical genius or the "dances out of cc" power

And that still leaves 300 points + free card + avatar.

>For every detatchment/point he outnumbers the marines on the weak side,
>he will be outnumbered on the strong side. Given the majority of ojectives
>are on that side, it a chance worth taking.

You're still not acknowledging the fact that the eldar can fight one place
one turn and a different one the next. In short, they can wipe up your weak
force,and then shift that entire flank (or at least most of it) into the
main battle.

>>> From experience, I can
>>>almost guarentee that the 100+ stand assault force swarming onto his
>>>side of the table *will* become his primary concern.
>>
>>Probably so, but you anly have about 75 plus rhinos.
>
>36 scouts +
>36 assaults +
>18 rhinos +
>5 company commanders +
>5 special card commanders (medics and librarians) +
>10 command rhinos
>= 110 stands (I'm not sure if the scouts get company commanders though)

36+36+5+5= 82 stands and 28 rhinos. You have to remember the rhinos suck,
and do count towards break points on the company.

>>You can only have 2 barrage missiles. One-shots are carapace only.
>
>Uh, 1 per titan (I always think of the titans as a single unit).

So this is a battle group? I must have missed that. Well, let's just put a
phantom BG with 6 pulsars and 6 laswings into the forces above.

>(MOO? Is this a problem with mad cow disease? ;)

One of those private joke things. It substitutes for "Huh?"

>No, I haven't overlooked the warlocks. First, I think we can both agree
>that there are better options than titans when fighting the eldar.
>Second, remember I put the titans all the way in the back (*all* the way).
>My principle reason was to prevent flyers from getting behind them (I
>would rather have the titans shooting at flyers than the devestators).
>However, if I recall correctly, the psychic lock has a range of 50 cm,
>this means in order to use it,

1) Yes, we did agree that titans suck versus eldar, but you seem to be
taking 3 of them. 2) The psychic lock has 75 cm range, and the warlocks
have command falcons that move 50cm. 3) the warlocks are command units, so
you can't fire at them unless they are the closest thing. Besides, I'll
trade a warlock for a titan (even 2 or 3 or 4 warlocks) anyday. And if you
cna cause a meltdown in the midst of his stuff . . .

>Not really. From experience, . . . This will allow the aspects to CC 4
stands each, which they
>will probobly kill. In return, they will be broken during the advance
>fire phase. This is a perfectly acceptable exchange.

But they will probably kill another 1-2 stands per detachment next turn
unless you wipe them out completely. But that doesn't leave much firepower
against the bikes.

>Assualts move 30, 45 cm on the first turn, 75 on the second, to the back
>of the deployment zone on the third.

Forgot the extra move. But that is assuming that they dont' engage anythign
ont he way, and that nothing decides to pin them. It won't happen that way.

>The scouts infiltrate, so they get
>30 cm on the first turn (they don't want to crowd the assaults), 50 on
>the second, and 70 on the third. Probobly enough to reach any objectives.

I'm pretty sure scouts infiltrate charge distance, which s 20.

>I never try to bean count the casualties inflicted by direct fire (the
>estimates I give are from experience) becasue things never work out
>that simply. On the first turn, a significant part of the eldar
>army will be on the move, not to mention that some units may be destroyed
>by barrage missles and the like before they fire.

I think the eldar knowing your orders before movement will allow him to
counter much of your oening move.

>What I can say is
>that the best I have ever seen an Eldar army do is 33 casualties in the
>FF phase, and that was with the support of a devestator company (the
>only infantry he had).

But that's with a shooty army. An aspect force will inflict considerably
more when they are in hth.

>I designed this army to beat "sit back and shoot"
>styles of armies, and I firmly believe that you will not beat it with
>firepower alone, because the eldar are too expensive to sit and trade
>stands in a slugfest (which is exactly what I'm trying to draw them
>into). The eldar beat this army by doing their schtick, and trying
>to draw the game out.

Um, I think the eldar's schtik is to win as quickly as possible, not to
draw it out. What if he loses initiative, charges everything onto the 8
objectives and you can't knock him off? turn 1 those 3 objectives in the
open on the other side of the board are prime candidates for jet bikes. You
won't have the firepower to kill htem to a man, so they will be heavily
contested with one det each. 4 aspect dets in falcons can ably secure 4
objectives on the crowded side, the warlocks, titan, and remaining falcons
should do enough damage to grab a few victory points, he might just win
first turn.

>Granted, but the question becomexs, "can the eldar destroy this force
>without giving up just as many or more VPs?". My experience is, that if
>the eldar charge out and get into a massive scrum on the first or second
>turn, when the assault force is at it's greatest stregnth, that they
>will give up as many VPs as they take (if not more). Those aspects have
>to kill 6 stands each (per detachment) to break even on points, more to
>break even in VP. If you charge them into an open field on the first
>turn (which is where the assault force will be), most will die on that
>first turn. I think we both agree that this is not the style of play
>the eldar want.

that's true

>I don't worry about any objectives on the weak side, I am after the ones
>on the other side.

But that's 15 VPs. fi you dont' thinkt he eldar can keep at least one of
the other ones, you're nuts.

>I never worry about the bikes either, because if the
>ojective is in the open, I can shoot him off of it. If it's in terrain then
>infantry can always sneak in and take it.

How are you going to guarantee enough firepower to kill five bikes when it's
late enough in the game that you are making objective grabs? With a 1/3 hit
percent that's 15 shots, IF you can see them all.

>It's the aspects that are
>the problem. Good eldar players will, as you have said, assign a det
>of aspects to each objective. It is nearly impossible to to root a
>detactment of scorpions off an objective in the woods,

Like I said, the eldar will be able to take the weak side and hold out on
the strong side. I dont' think you can count on objectives. The real
decider will be the break points for the eldar. With the medics, that will
be the make or break point.

>I was relying on the titans to do this (kill shooty stuff).

Titans dont' have enough firepower. Sure a bunch of one-shots will hurt,
but you will most likely lose one to warlocks before the first fire phase.

I really think it will come down to who scores the most points in the
bloodbath. The more I think about it, the more I think at 6000 pts so much
stuff will get broken that it will be a tie. Especially with most of the
forces concentrated on half the board.

Temp
Received on Tue Mar 18 1997 - 16:11:44 UTC