[Epic] Titans and Eldar (looooong) (was: Titans and CC)

From: DAVID C LADO, DEPT OF NEUROSCIENCE <LADO_at_...>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:04:07 -0500 (EST)

Wow! Someone talking about tactics instead of complaining! Maybe we should
take this discussion of the list, I don't want to waste bandwidth actually
talking about the game instead of bad-mouthing GW ;).

>>2 Pack your army together.
>
>I dont' know if this is necessary. I still maintain that about 6 stands can
>screen a titan from a force large enough to damage it. Take your figs out
>and lay them on a table just to see howmuch you can block with a single
>detachment. Besides, those bikes, while not doing anything if you lose
>initiative, will cause the enemy great consternation when you win.

Ooops, I mispoke. When I said pack the army together, I should have
elaborated. I don't mean pack stands physically together around the titans,
what I meant was that the bulk of your army (2/3 to 3/4s in most games)
should be deoploying within the same 3' to 4' section of your deployment
zone (whether its the flank or center would depend on the table and
objectives). Against eldar, there is really no point in having a
screening force in front of the titans since the jetbikes zip right
over it anyway. What you want to have is your army in close proximity
(read firing range) of each other and with clear lines of sight to as
many friendly units as possible (subject to terrain of course). This
way, where ever those jet bikes go, you can unload lots of fire into
them when they do come at your troops.

<snip stuff we agree on, who wants to talk about that ;>

>>3 Judging from what you said about your force composition, I don't
>> think there is anything wrong with it. From my limited
>> experience (fought eldar lots, but only with orks), the keys to
>> beating them are speed and numbers.
>
>I disagree here. The eldar have the speed and numbers. Don't try to out
>eldar the eldar. As an eldar player, my biggest problems have been morale,
>and opponents who successfully concentrate their forces.

Hmmmm, I think my orky mentality has again obscured the point. I agree that
you can't out eldar the eldar, but you can ork them. Speed is a very relative
thing for the orks, so when I look at marine assault troops I think "gee
those guys are *fast*" You don't want to use your speed to move side
to side, you need it to cross the board ASAP. You can't win if you
don't destroy the enemy, and the quickest way to kill troops in epic is
CC.

As for morale, I think, in the current system, it has very little influence
on the outcome of the game. By the time a unit actually might go on fall
back orders it has either been reduced to the point of uselessness, or
it has been wiped out altogether. When those little 2-4 stand detatchments
break, it means there are only 1-2 survivors, and of those few units,
only 1/3 (or less for aspects) will actually fail morale. The net effect
is that very few units will actually go on fallback orders and the ones
that do are generally so useless they lived because they weren't enough
of a threat to bother killing (like the last vibro-cannon from a det.)
In any case, the eldar player will generally only lose 1 or 2 vehicles
of any importance (usually serpents or weavers) from fall back orders.
The effect of these losses is minimal also because the units have
already done their damage and given up their VP anyway.

>>4 Another thing that pays when fighting eldar (again, I don't know
>> how well this translates to non-ork armies) is aggression. It is
>> far better to be fast and furious than slow and cautious. The
>> eldar armies I generally face are like assassins, they are good at
>> killing the hell out of one unit, but they have trouble killing
>> large numbers of units in a single turn.
>
>While this is true, charging across the board like a madman is a recipe for
>destruction against the eldar. Let me explain: Turn 1: Eldar advances or
>charges falcons loaded with aspect warriors (largely cc troops) to reach
>midboard. A few falcons get shot down, but not many, because you are trying
>to take territory also. Bikes hide if eldar lose initiative, or pounce if
>they win. Turn 2: Falcons on first fire, or advance if they can be overrun.
>The aspects enter close combat and sell themselves dearly, or (if shooty
>types) go on first fire and sell themselves dearly. Either way it weakens
>and slows your assault. Bikes pick off any straggling units. Turn 3: Your
>rag tag remnants finally enter close assault with units not intended for it
>(falcons, etc). Meanwhile, his bikes hit your vulnerable support weapons
>(if they haven't already) or steal objective you have charged past, and you
>are still close combatting his troops on first fire.

This is only true if you have failed to concentrate your army. The best
way to explain is to give an example. The original poster said he plays
6-7K battles, so I'll pick a 6K marine/titan army following the design
I would use for my orks:

Warlord battlgroup (again, I wouldn't take 'em, but it's the subject)
Devestator company
Assault Co.
Assault Co.
Scout Co.
Scout Co.
Tac Co.
the final 350 pts I would spend on THs (lets say 3), tarantulas, rapiers
and other garbage. If I know my opponent has firestorms, I might not
even bring THs. Let's say in this example that they stay at home.
Instead I bring 1 det of tarantuals and the rest as medics, chaplins,
and librarians (mostly medics).

So as you can see, there are very few vulnerable rear-line units
to begin with, so I'm not too worried about units getting behind my
lines (oooh don't kill my tarantulas!)

When you place objectives, put your half on one side of the board (lets
say the left side). Put the objectives in the open next to terrain.
This guarentees that at least half the ojectives will be in the open,
and it denies the eldar player the ability to put an objective in that
terrain. Even if your opponent is trying to counter you, it can almost
always be arrainged so that there are at least 5 objective one side
(the 4 you placed and the one he placed before he figures out which side
you're going for). The terrain is not important since both clear and
crowded terrain can be worked to the advantage of either player, you
just have to pick what you like and make the best of it. If you use
the official rules for placing terrain, take the opportunity to put
hills in both deployment zones if possible. They will help him but
the help you as much if not more (see below).
 
Put one scout company in the center/left, put one tac det on the far
flank of your weak side, along with any bikes or speeders you took.
Put a second tac det. in the center. The third goes on the strong side
as far forward as possible without getting in the way. Put both assualt
compaies on the strong (left) side of the table along with one scout
company. The assults should be concentrated in the center of the left
side, probobly no closer than about 4" from the edge. The two scout
companies are spread center to left edge, mixed in with the assaults.
The titans, tarantulas, and devestators and placed on the left side in
the best available firing positions. The titans, which he said he
armed with long-range weapons, should be the farthest back of all. All
three devestator dets. should be placed so as to have LOS to all
3 titans (which should be together). The special leaders should be
with the assaults.

Infiltrate the scouts 20 cm

first turn the assualts charge forward, unload, and spread out. A
single scout company, reasonably spread, will form a mass about 2' wide
and 6" deep situated just past the mid-way line of the board. This may
vary depending on terrain. Just behind these, also spread out, charge
the two scout companies. On the far left and center the two tac det. come
up on advance orders. Between these two detatchemnts, just behind the
scouts, are scattered the company comanders. The specials are spread
amoung the assaults in as safe a position as available. Put the assault
troops (including the scouts) out in the open. Now is not the time
to worry about casualties.

The one or two detatchements on the right flank make for objectives and
try to looky *very* harmless. If they fail they just try to sell
themselves as dearly as possible.

The eldar player now faces 36 stands of +3 troops, 36 stands of +2
troops, 18 rhinos, and a fist-full of command units. Behind them are
the devestators on FF and the titans on FF. From experience, I can
almost guarentee that the 100+ stand assault force swarming onto his
side of the table *will* become his primary concern. If he hits you
with aspects, you take the casualties and destroy the aspects during the
advance fire phase using the command units (hold their fire), tacs, and
devestators if necessary. The VP exchange will favor you so long as you
destroy the aspects right away (they should be your primary target). If
he hits you with his bikes, use the command units and devs to inflict
maximum casualties before CC, and your troops should fair well enough
against the ones that remain. Remember that you put the your troops in
the open; this is the reason.

The titans shoot at expensive stuff. Take some barrage missles (3) to blast
wave serpents, weavers, and other thin skinned targets that may be available.
It may be tempting to blast jetbikes if they are cowering behind terrain,
but I thing its more important to knock out the serpents. If the eldar
player likes to field bunches of serpents, take 6 barrage missles. The
availability of targets will, of course, depend on terrain and deployment,
but there will almost always be something around to shoot.

The second turn is more of the same, just keep swarming towards his back
line units, objectives, whatever is available. Don't try to CC the aspects,
just soak up the casualties and retaliate in the advance fire phase. The
tacs, which should have advanced towards objectives if possible, settle down
on FF orders. You can also use couple of scout dets. to secure objectives
you have overrun. These units settle on FF orders while the rest charge.
The devestators will be able to cover the charge for the first two turns,
after that it doesn't matter. If you've got him fighting in his own
deployment zone, he's lost. If he goes for the titans with his bikes
(not likely IMO) you have the devestators and some of the tacs around to
help out. If he hits you with a couple of wind hosts, he'll get the
titans, so make him pay at the other end.

My experience is that the eldar has 2 turns to either come up with
something clever or to kill about 60 stands of the assault force. Eldar
armies will be hard pressed to inflict that kind of losses, especially
if you got his serpents (the best barrage weapon in the game). It's
quite possible to lose with this army, but it will often through a monkey
wrench into the eldar battle plans.

The other thing is that these tactics assume you lose the first turn
initiative. If you win, it works even better, as you can charge forward
and avoid CC altogether (the eldar will probobly be hiding). This,
combined with the fact that the eldar will have to move some of his units
to take objectives, means it is quite possible to take very few casualties
on the first turn (15-20 as a guess). The problems of the eldar player
can be exaserbated if he made a bad deployment and has a significant
part of his force on the far right flank.

The other thing to consider is the reaction of the person you're playing.
You would probobly be surprised by the number of players (even veterens)
who will simply panic when faced with this situation. This army is
stoppable (it's by no means unbeatable), but only if the eldar plays
his units correctly. The suggestions that Temp gave were good (using
the aspects to slow the advance), as the eldar player must find some
way to stall the attack. The *absolute* worst theing he can do,
which is also probobly the most common reaction, is put his army on FF.
While he will inflict far heavier casualties, he will let the attack
move forward unhindered and he will lose all the objectives. The
other thing to remember is that the medics can have a tremendous effect
on the game. If you get 4-5 medics within range of 4-6 detatchements,
they will be able to heal up as much as a whole detatchment worth
of marines. This will go a long way to sustaining the attack, as
well as annoying the eldar player, even to the point of making a
mistake (such as throwing the kitchen sink at the medics). Again,
a reckless or panicked reaction to the medics can be more helpful
to you than the units themselves.

These tactics work equally as well with IG (using RRs, bikes and
beastmen as the assault force), and space wolves (you loose the
devestators but replace them with terminator command units, which
can work even better). It works extremely well with orks (I know),
whose nobz bikes can cause true chaos as they sweep behind the eldar
lines on the second turn, blasting into the thin rear armor of any
tanks unwise enough to be on FF orders. There are also quite a
number of variations that can be used with this army, substituting
THs, landspeeders and bikes for various part of the assault force
(again, though, I go for number over quality).

This army also has a very deceptive quality to as well. On it's
surface, it appears to be a CC army, and the eldar player may feel
that he can win if he stops the attack. However, pointswise, almost
half the army (the better half) is actually sitting on the back
lines. The titans and devs will probobly account for the majority
of casualties you inflict, so a good firing position is paramount.
The assault force *must* accomplish two tasks to be successful, it
must take 4-6 objectives, and it must draw so much fire as to spare
the titans and devs. If they do, then you will spend 2 turns inflicting
casualties on his shooting units while he leaves yours alone.

The reason it is so important to use cheap troops (vs termies or raiders)
is that this army is based on the philosophy that you will exchange
stands one-for-one with the eldar. If you make it so, you will win
because of the cost of the eldar units. By quick comaparison, 750
pts buys an assault company worth 8 VP and with a break of 15. the
same number of points buys 5 aspects with a worth 10 VP, with a break
of 10 and which are wiped out at only 20 casualties. So exchanging
troops is fine. The other option open to eldar is using his jet bikes,
but these have the tremendous achilles heel of getting shot in CC
during the FF phase. The devs and command units combined will wipe out
3-4 detatchments worth of bikes during the FF phase, about a third of
2 windhosts, plus the medics will still be able to bring some of the
boyz back. In any case, the eldar army is not designed to get into
a pitched melee in the open field; it's not their game and they'll
lose if they try it. Just as you try to aggressively dictate the
pace of the game, so will the eldar player. The player who succeeds
is the one who will win.

>This all assumes a fairly normal force selection. If he knows you are
>coming with a close assault army, just don't bother playing. Hand him the
>dice, tell him he wins, and pick a new force. This close assault force is
>basically a chaos type army, and I've never lost with Eldar vs. Chaos.

This true, but it's *always* true. If you know what your opponent is
fielding, you have the advantage. That's why you want to mix it up so
the enemy can't field a specialized army. I wouldn't recommend
fielding the same army over and over no matter how successful (and it's
no fun as well).

>> If he hasn't beaten you by turn three, you
>> will probobly beat him.
>
>This is true, but you will probably have too much stuff broken to deny him
>the points, especially, if you don't drop troops along the way to secure
>objectives.

Like I said, this is deceptive. The assault companies have a collective
break of 60 and give up 26 VPs (plus 5-6 for the commanders). The devs
and titans give up 37 VP, so they are actually the bulk of the points,
and it's quite possible they will go the game untouched. Don't get me
wrong, the assault force *will* break, all of it. But those are acceptable
loses in a 6K pt game (assuming it accomplishes it's objectives).
Again, I'm not saying its a sure thing, only that it is a good army
if you play it right.

>> The other thing
>> about being very agressive is that it forces the eldar to make
>> adjustments, forcing him to react to you, and thereby creating the
>> opportunity for him to make mistakes.
>
>While this is true, the eldar are the premier army IMHO for reacting to
>opponents moves and rapidly correcting mistakes.

True, but as a general rule, the guy who makes the fewest mistakes will
win.

>>Like I said, these are the tactics I use with orks against eldar, and they
>>have served me quite well. They do require you to field a "orky" style
>>army (lots of assault troops, less shooty stuff), and if you don't want
>>want that sort of army, then, of course, these tactics won't help much.
>
>I can't imagine that some eldar player hasn't taken you to school yet. Of
>course, with the "green wave" concept you may just be able to put too many
>figs on the field.

They sure can, I can field a 3000 pt army with 60 stands and 30 command units.
I quite often have more command units on the field than my opponent has
infantry. But if you must know, yes, I have been schooled on numerous
occassions by eldar and other players, but I have taught every opponent
I have faced to respect the orks ;) Actually, this strategy evolved out
of my frustration with fighting the eldar (especially serpents, which are
very hard for orks to kill). I said to myself "these %^&*! eldar kill
anything I put on the table! So then I will field the cheapest units
I have and just soak the casualties up". A little refinement and I had
a good working plan that has proved successful in many battles (not
every one, but many).

>I don't think the more costly and valuable marines can
>pull off the "500 million screaming chinamen" force. Besides, you seem to
>be missing the point that the eldar have lots of stuff to slow down
>attackers (waveserpents, doomweavers, etc) while they continue to whittle
>away your forces.

This was my main concern (the cost of the marines). But the marines have
some big advantages the orks don't have. Namely, medics and a 2+ morale.
Like I said, the assualt force will break, but it's ungodly morale,
coupled with the presence of the commanders, mean that it , as a whole,
will continue to function even after taking 60 casualties. As long
as it accomplishes it's two objectives, you have a chance. When ork
units start breaking, they tend to evaporate in short order.

Me again:
>David the verbose
Received on Sat Mar 15 1997 - 00:04:07 UTC