Hi!
Some math always makes for a clearer point I think. One thing I have
realized is that perhaps the emphasis is been given in the wrong spot. To
now we have been trying to alter the CAF side of things when perhaps its the
titans armor that should do the talking. As usual it is the fusion of ideas
that makes the better rule.
I propose the combination of Warprats rule of using 4d6 versus all targets
except knight and praetorian class units (which would be 3d6). When a titan
a titan gets hit we use Ed's suggestion and have the titan save using the
attackers CAF as a modifier. Elites gain a +1 to the damage roll if they
penetrate the armor to show that they put those charges where they count.
Units that hit, as usual, hit the leg, except if they have jump or flight
packs they can choose any location.
Using the math examples what can we expect? Lets see:
2nd edition rules but titans roll 4d6. This gives the reaver an average of
28.
The IG will reach a draw with stand 7 and win with stand 8.
Result: 6 stands gone, 3 hits. Of those 3 hits on average most would not
penetrate the leg. On average IG have a very steep hill to climb, but that's
the way it should be they are not trained for this, but they DO have a
chance.
Marine assault (tac's) wins after marine stand 3.
Result: 3 rhinos and 2 stands go down. 4 hits to the titan. Of the 4 hits
two on average would penetrate. Note how a smaller, but better trained force
has a better result.
Veterans win with the second stand (average 29)
Result: 3 rhinos and 1 stand dead. 5 hits to titan. Same as above.
A unit of elite terminators will lose its two land raiders and 2 terminators
but the remaining ones will inflict two automatic hits (-6 to save ouch!)
and add +1 to the damage roll. Not a good day for the titan.
Conclusion: You get the benefit with the 4d6 of keeping down swarming
effects to a reasonable level and with the CAF to save translation you get a
clear difference from those who can get the job done and cannon fodder.
Better?
Peter
> I like the idea of current rules, but allow the Titan to be able to make a
> save roll against the hit modify by attackers CAF. would show the Titans
> strength against weak infantry, but also would show it's vunerable against
> harden vets and specail troop types.
> > Hi guys.
> > The titan close combat discussions has been raging for quite a while. I
> have
> > made some calculations on the chances for infantry to survive and cause
> > damage.
> >
> > In these examples I have used a reaver titan (CAF +12) with no extra CC
> > weapons.
> > I have used 4 infantry detachments in the examples: An IG tactical
> > detachment (10 stands CAF +0), a marine tactical detachment (6 stands
CAF
> > +2, 3 rhinos CAF +0), a marine veteran detachment (6 stands CAF +4
elite,
> 3
> > rhinos CAF +0) and an eldar exarch detachment (4 stands CAF +8 elite).
> >
> > While warlords are the main battle titan, reavers are much more common
on
> > the gaming boards. Also, it is a very good all-round titan. Eldar
phantoms
> > and warlocks got +12 too (i think)
> >
> > Here goes:
> >
> > A: Original 2nd edition epic rules. The average result for the reaver is
> 19.
> >
> > The IG grunts will reach an average CC result of 17.5 with the fourth
> stand
> > (which dies) and 21 with the fifth (which wins). So on average, every
> stand
> > after number five will hit the titan.
> > Result: 4 stands lost, titan suffer 6 hits.
> >
> > The marines throw their rhinos in first. Rhino 3 get an average value of
> 14.
> > The first marine stand get 19.5 and will propably draw then. Each stand
> > after that will get a higher result on average.
> > Result: 3 rhinos lost. Titan suffers 5 hits.
> >
> > The veterans get similar results with the rhinos. However the first
> veteran
> > stand has an average score of 21.5.
> > Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 6 hits to mr. titan.
> >
> > The pointy eared eldar get 18.5 on average with the second stand. This
can
> > be considered a draw.
> > Result: 1 stand die, 2 hits to the titan.
> >
> > Conclusion: Strength in numbers. It doesnt matter much what you throw at
> the
> > titan, its gonna suffer.
> > Actually the really heavy guys (exarches, termies etc.) are less
effective
> > than the cheap grunts because of the smaller gang-up bonusses.
> >
> > B: 2nd edition rules but titans roll 4d6. This gives the reaver an
average
> > of 28.
> >
> > The IG will reach a draw with stand 7 and win with stand 8.
> > Result: 6 stands gone, 3 hits. If the tac's suffers hits before the
> > engagement they are in for a tough fight.
> >
> > Marine assault (tac's) wins after marine stand 3.
> > Result: 3 rhinos and 2 stands go down. 4 hits to the titan. (Note that
> > before the IG got more hits in)
> >
> > Veterans win with the second stand (average 29)
> > Result: 3 rhinos and 1 stand dead. 5 hits to titan.
> >
> > The eldar get the axe here, actually the fourth stand gets an average
25.5
> > Result: 4 squished eldar stands. 1 unscathed titan.
> >
> > Conclusion: Much tougher for the grunts. Elites need cheap back-up. A
few
> > guardians would have helped the eldar.
> >
> > C: 2nd edition but titans double CAF (Average result of 31)
> >
> > The guard reach a draw / win with stand 8 (average 31.5)
> > Result: 7 stands die, 2-3 hits.
> >
> > Marine tacticals get 30.5 with stand 3.
> > Result: 3 rhinos, 2-3 stands dead. Titan gets 3-4 hits.
> >
> > Veterans win big with stand 3.
> > Result: 3 rhinos, 2 stands away, 4 hits to titan.
> >
> > The eldar cant reach an average of 31 so they perish.
> >
> > Conclusion: Not much different, but the bigger titans will get MUCH
> meaner,
> > while warhounds etc. will be swamped.
> >
> > D: The current NetEpic 3.0 rules.
> >
> > The imperial guard will on average get 1-2 stands through.
> > Result: 8-9 dead IG, 1-2 hits on the legs with a save modifier of -0.
> >
> > The marines have a rough 50% chance of causing a hit with a rhino (which
> die
> > anyway) and -0 to save. On average 1 stand survive.
> > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead. 1 hit with -2, 0-1 hit with -0.
> >
> > The veterans have 2 survivors but other wise little more happens.
> > Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 4 stands die. 2 hits -3, 0-1 hit -0.
> >
> > Exarches get 1 hit. 2 if lucky.
> > Result: 2-3 (most likely 3) dead. 1-2 hits with -3.
> >
> > Conclusion: Infantry get wasted big time. I think it is interesting that
> > tactical marines (CAF +4, 350 points I think), do more harm than the
> > exarches (CAF +8, 400 points)
> >
> > E: 2nd edition but multiple attacker bonus is limited to +1 per previous
> > combatant.
> >
> > The IG might cause damage with the final stand (average 18)
> > Result: 9-10 dead.
> >
> > Our beloved marines get an average of 17 at most.
> > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 6 dead marines
> >
> > The veterans reach 19 on average with the final stand.
> > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead, no damage to reaver
> >
> > The eldar get a final average of 18.
> > Result: Squish, squish, squish, squish
> >
> > Conclusion: Much too wild. This makes the titans too invulnerable.
> >
> > F: 2nd edition but add +1 for every previous attacker, unless that
> attacker
> > was elite (which adds +2)
> >
> > This does not change things for the IG and tacticals.
> > The veterans get an average of 20 (win) with stand 4
> > Result: lose 3 rhinos and 3 stands. Score 3 hits.
> >
> > The eldar get an average of 19 with stand 3.
> > Result: 2 stands lost, 1 hit scored.
> >
> > Conclusion: Elites might do it, with sufficient sacrifices. Others still
> > bite it.
> >
> > G: 2nd edition but add +2 for every previous attacker, +3 for elites.
> >
> > IG will draw with stand 7.
> > Result: 6 lost, 3 hits on titan
> >
> > Marines draw with stand 3.
> > Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 2 stands. Score 3 hits.
> >
> > Veterans will win after the first marine stand..
> > Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 1 stand. Cause 5 agonising hits.
> >
> > The eldar will win after 2 stands.
> > Result: 2 lost, 2 hits.
> >
> > Conclusion: This seems pretty acceptable. It is costly, but can succeed.
I
> > rather like this.
> >
> >
> > These results should bear in mind that they are calculated on average
> > results, they do not take wild luck into account or the fact that the
> > infantry might very well have suffered casualties along the way.
> >
> > But it is up to people to decide.just though I wanted to show this to
you.
> >
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2000 - 16:22:25 UTC