Yes this sounds much better
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Ramos <pramos2_at_...>
To: <netepic_at_egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] A little math on titan CC
> Hi!
>
> Some math always makes for a clearer point I think. One thing I have
> realized is that perhaps the emphasis is been given in the wrong spot. To
> now we have been trying to alter the CAF side of things when perhaps its
the
> titans armor that should do the talking. As usual it is the fusion of
ideas
> that makes the better rule.
>
> I propose the combination of Warprats rule of using 4d6 versus all targets
> except knight and praetorian class units (which would be 3d6). When a
titan
> a titan gets hit we use Ed's suggestion and have the titan save using the
> attackers CAF as a modifier. Elites gain a +1 to the damage roll if they
> penetrate the armor to show that they put those charges where they count.
>
> Units that hit, as usual, hit the leg, except if they have jump or flight
> packs they can choose any location.
>
> Using the math examples what can we expect? Lets see:
>
> 2nd edition rules but titans roll 4d6. This gives the reaver an average of
> 28.
>
> The IG will reach a draw with stand 7 and win with stand 8.
> Result: 6 stands gone, 3 hits. Of those 3 hits on average most would not
> penetrate the leg. On average IG have a very steep hill to climb, but
that's
> the way it should be they are not trained for this, but they DO have a
> chance.
>
> Marine assault (tac's) wins after marine stand 3.
> Result: 3 rhinos and 2 stands go down. 4 hits to the titan. Of the 4 hits
> two on average would penetrate. Note how a smaller, but better trained
force
> has a better result.
>
> Veterans win with the second stand (average 29)
> Result: 3 rhinos and 1 stand dead. 5 hits to titan. Same as above.
>
> A unit of elite terminators will lose its two land raiders and 2
terminators
> but the remaining ones will inflict two automatic hits (-6 to save ouch!)
> and add +1 to the damage roll. Not a good day for the titan.
>
> Conclusion: You get the benefit with the 4d6 of keeping down swarming
> effects to a reasonable level and with the CAF to save translation you get
a
> clear difference from those who can get the job done and cannon fodder.
>
> Better?
>
> Peter
>
>
> > I like the idea of current rules, but allow the Titan to be able to make
a
> > save roll against the hit modify by attackers CAF. would show the Titans
> > strength against weak infantry, but also would show it's vunerable
against
> > harden vets and specail troop types.
>
> > > Hi guys.
> > > The titan close combat discussions has been raging for quite a while.
I
> > have
> > > made some calculations on the chances for infantry to survive and
cause
> > > damage.
> > >
> > > In these examples I have used a reaver titan (CAF +12) with no extra
CC
> > > weapons.
> > > I have used 4 infantry detachments in the examples: An IG tactical
> > > detachment (10 stands CAF +0), a marine tactical detachment (6 stands
> CAF
> > > +2, 3 rhinos CAF +0), a marine veteran detachment (6 stands CAF +4
> elite,
> > 3
> > > rhinos CAF +0) and an eldar exarch detachment (4 stands CAF +8 elite).
> > >
> > > While warlords are the main battle titan, reavers are much more common
> on
> > > the gaming boards. Also, it is a very good all-round titan. Eldar
> phantoms
> > > and warlocks got +12 too (i think)
> > >
> > > Here goes:
> > >
> > > A: Original 2nd edition epic rules. The average result for the reaver
is
> > 19.
> > >
> > > The IG grunts will reach an average CC result of 17.5 with the fourth
> > stand
> > > (which dies) and 21 with the fifth (which wins). So on average, every
> > stand
> > > after number five will hit the titan.
> > > Result: 4 stands lost, titan suffer 6 hits.
> > >
> > > The marines throw their rhinos in first. Rhino 3 get an average value
of
> > 14.
> > > The first marine stand get 19.5 and will propably draw then. Each
stand
> > > after that will get a higher result on average.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos lost. Titan suffers 5 hits.
> > >
> > > The veterans get similar results with the rhinos. However the first
> > veteran
> > > stand has an average score of 21.5.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 6 hits to mr. titan.
> > >
> > > The pointy eared eldar get 18.5 on average with the second stand. This
> can
> > > be considered a draw.
> > > Result: 1 stand die, 2 hits to the titan.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Strength in numbers. It doesnt matter much what you throw
at
> > the
> > > titan, its gonna suffer.
> > > Actually the really heavy guys (exarches, termies etc.) are less
> effective
> > > than the cheap grunts because of the smaller gang-up bonusses.
> > >
> > > B: 2nd edition rules but titans roll 4d6. This gives the reaver an
> average
> > > of 28.
> > >
> > > The IG will reach a draw with stand 7 and win with stand 8.
> > > Result: 6 stands gone, 3 hits. If the tac's suffers hits before the
> > > engagement they are in for a tough fight.
> > >
> > > Marine assault (tac's) wins after marine stand 3.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos and 2 stands go down. 4 hits to the titan. (Note that
> > > before the IG got more hits in)
> > >
> > > Veterans win with the second stand (average 29)
> > > Result: 3 rhinos and 1 stand dead. 5 hits to titan.
> > >
> > > The eldar get the axe here, actually the fourth stand gets an average
> 25.5
> > > Result: 4 squished eldar stands. 1 unscathed titan.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Much tougher for the grunts. Elites need cheap back-up. A
> few
> > > guardians would have helped the eldar.
> > >
> > > C: 2nd edition but titans double CAF (Average result of 31)
> > >
> > > The guard reach a draw / win with stand 8 (average 31.5)
> > > Result: 7 stands die, 2-3 hits.
> > >
> > > Marine tacticals get 30.5 with stand 3.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos, 2-3 stands dead. Titan gets 3-4 hits.
> > >
> > > Veterans win big with stand 3.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos, 2 stands away, 4 hits to titan.
> > >
> > > The eldar cant reach an average of 31 so they perish.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Not much different, but the bigger titans will get MUCH
> > meaner,
> > > while warhounds etc. will be swamped.
> > >
> > > D: The current NetEpic 3.0 rules.
> > >
> > > The imperial guard will on average get 1-2 stands through.
> > > Result: 8-9 dead IG, 1-2 hits on the legs with a save modifier of -0.
> > >
> > > The marines have a rough 50% chance of causing a hit with a rhino
(which
> > die
> > > anyway) and -0 to save. On average 1 stand survive.
> > > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead. 1 hit with -2, 0-1 hit with -0.
> > >
> > > The veterans have 2 survivors but other wise little more happens.
> > > Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 4 stands die. 2 hits -3, 0-1 hit -0.
> > >
> > > Exarches get 1 hit. 2 if lucky.
> > > Result: 2-3 (most likely 3) dead. 1-2 hits with -3.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Infantry get wasted big time. I think it is interesting
that
> > > tactical marines (CAF +4, 350 points I think), do more harm than the
> > > exarches (CAF +8, 400 points)
> > >
> > > E: 2nd edition but multiple attacker bonus is limited to +1 per
previous
> > > combatant.
> > >
> > > The IG might cause damage with the final stand (average 18)
> > > Result: 9-10 dead.
> > >
> > > Our beloved marines get an average of 17 at most.
> > > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 6 dead marines
> > >
> > > The veterans reach 19 on average with the final stand.
> > > Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead, no damage to reaver
> > >
> > > The eldar get a final average of 18.
> > > Result: Squish, squish, squish, squish
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Much too wild. This makes the titans too invulnerable.
> > >
> > > F: 2nd edition but add +1 for every previous attacker, unless that
> > attacker
> > > was elite (which adds +2)
> > >
> > > This does not change things for the IG and tacticals.
> > > The veterans get an average of 20 (win) with stand 4
> > > Result: lose 3 rhinos and 3 stands. Score 3 hits.
> > >
> > > The eldar get an average of 19 with stand 3.
> > > Result: 2 stands lost, 1 hit scored.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: Elites might do it, with sufficient sacrifices. Others
still
> > > bite it.
> > >
> > > G: 2nd edition but add +2 for every previous attacker, +3 for elites.
> > >
> > > IG will draw with stand 7.
> > > Result: 6 lost, 3 hits on titan
> > >
> > > Marines draw with stand 3.
> > > Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 2 stands. Score 3 hits.
> > >
> > > Veterans will win after the first marine stand..
> > > Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 1 stand. Cause 5 agonising hits.
> > >
> > > The eldar will win after 2 stands.
> > > Result: 2 lost, 2 hits.
> > >
> > > Conclusion: This seems pretty acceptable. It is costly, but can
succeed.
> I
> > > rather like this.
> > >
> > >
> > > These results should bear in mind that they are calculated on average
> > > results, they do not take wild luck into account or the fact that the
> > > infantry might very well have suffered casualties along the way.
> > >
> > > But it is up to people to decide.just though I wanted to show this to
> you.
> > >
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2000 - 18:08:46 UTC