Hi,
Thanks for doing the number crunching Weasel, should be a good solid
base for discussion (&dissent!) ! The Marine results both illustrate
the use of fodder pretty well, they'd take it a lot worse w/out the
rhinos. To make it more complicated...
Option J2 - Normal CAF, 2nd Ed CC w/multiple attackers only getting
1/2d6 per extra attacker.
IG: lose 7 stands, tie, 2 hits on titan.
Tac SM: lose rhinos, 2 marines, 2-3 hits on titan
Vets: lose rhinos, 2 marines, 3-4 hits on titan.
Exarchs: lose 2 exarchs, 2 hits on titan.
Option J3: If the whole idea is to keep titans from getting swamped
by fodder, assign some arbitrary max number of units that can attack
a titan at one time. Base it on titans size, for ex: scout titans 5,
Reaver-level 8, Warlord-level 10, Imperator 20 or something. Would
allow some uses for fodder to soften Titan up, but you'd want some
heavy hitters to actually do the damage. Big fuss would be deciding
what titans are what "level".
Option J4: Normal 2nd ed CC, but allow titans their armor save
(Heresy!), maybe w/a mod of -1 per every 2 or 3 pts of CAF the
attacker has (ie Termies would give a -2 or -3 save mod). Would
allow a titan to take mult hits and keep going even if it "loses",
and would encourage attackers to go for weaker areas - unit swarms
over titan, damages it, next round desperately seek cover...:)
I can feel the fires warming up even now...;)
Jim
--- In netepic_at_egroups.com, "Weasel Fierce" <septimus__at_h...> wrote:
> Hi guys.
> The titan close combat discussions has been raging for quite a
while. I have
> made some calculations on the chances for infantry to survive and
cause
> damage.
>
> In these examples I have used a reaver titan (CAF +12) with no
extra CC
> weapons.
> I have used 4 infantry detachments in the examples: An IG tactical
> detachment (10 stands CAF +0), a marine tactical detachment (6
stands CAF
> +2, 3 rhinos CAF +0), a marine veteran detachment (6 stands CAF +4
elite, 3
> rhinos CAF +0) and an eldar exarch detachment (4 stands CAF +8
elite).
>
> While warlords are the main battle titan, reavers are much more
common on
> the gaming boards. Also, it is a very good all-round titan. Eldar
phantoms
> and warlocks got +12 too (i think)
>
> Here goes:
>
> A: Original 2nd edition epic rules. The average result for the
reaver is 19.
>
> The IG grunts will reach an average CC result of 17.5 with the
fourth stand
> (which dies) and 21 with the fifth (which wins). So on average,
every stand
> after number five will hit the titan.
> Result: 4 stands lost, titan suffer 6 hits.
>
> The marines throw their rhinos in first. Rhino 3 get an average
value of 14.
> The first marine stand get 19.5 and will propably draw then. Each
stand
> after that will get a higher result on average.
> Result: 3 rhinos lost. Titan suffers 5 hits.
>
> The veterans get similar results with the rhinos. However the first
veteran
> stand has an average score of 21.5.
> Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 6 hits to mr. titan.
>
> The pointy eared eldar get 18.5 on average with the second stand.
This can
> be considered a draw.
> Result: 1 stand die, 2 hits to the titan.
>
> Conclusion: Strength in numbers. It doesnt matter much what you
throw at the
> titan, its gonna suffer.
> Actually the really heavy guys (exarches, termies etc.) are less
effective
> than the cheap grunts because of the smaller gang-up bonusses.
>
> B: 2nd edition rules but titans roll 4d6. This gives the reaver an
average
> of 28.
>
> The IG will reach a draw with stand 7 and win with stand 8.
> Result: 6 stands gone, 3 hits. If the tac's suffers hits before the
> engagement they are in for a tough fight.
>
> Marine assault (tac's) wins after marine stand 3.
> Result: 3 rhinos and 2 stands go down. 4 hits to the titan. (Note
that
> before the IG got more hits in)
>
> Veterans win with the second stand (average 29)
> Result: 3 rhinos and 1 stand dead. 5 hits to titan.
>
> The eldar get the axe here, actually the fourth stand gets an
average 25.5
> Result: 4 squished eldar stands. 1 unscathed titan.
>
> Conclusion: Much tougher for the grunts. Elites need cheap back-up.
A few
> guardians would have helped the eldar.
>
> C: 2nd edition but titans double CAF (Average result of 31)
>
> The guard reach a draw / win with stand 8 (average 31.5)
> Result: 7 stands die, 2-3 hits.
>
> Marine tacticals get 30.5 with stand 3.
> Result: 3 rhinos, 2-3 stands dead. Titan gets 3-4 hits.
>
> Veterans win big with stand 3.
> Result: 3 rhinos, 2 stands away, 4 hits to titan.
>
> The eldar cant reach an average of 31 so they perish.
>
> Conclusion: Not much different, but the bigger titans will get MUCH
meaner,
> while warhounds etc. will be swamped.
>
> D: The current NetEpic 3.0 rules.
>
> The imperial guard will on average get 1-2 stands through.
> Result: 8-9 dead IG, 1-2 hits on the legs with a save modifier of -
0.
>
> The marines have a rough 50% chance of causing a hit with a rhino
(which die
> anyway) and -0 to save. On average 1 stand survive.
> Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead. 1 hit with -2, 0-1 hit with -
0.
>
> The veterans have 2 survivors but other wise little more happens.
> Result: 3 rhinos wasted. 4 stands die. 2 hits -3, 0-1 hit -0.
>
> Exarches get 1 hit. 2 if lucky.
> Result: 2-3 (most likely 3) dead. 1-2 hits with -3.
>
> Conclusion: Infantry get wasted big time. I think it is interesting
that
> tactical marines (CAF +4, 350 points I think), do more harm than
the
> exarches (CAF +8, 400 points)
>
> E: 2nd edition but multiple attacker bonus is limited to +1 per
previous
> combatant.
>
> The IG might cause damage with the final stand (average 18)
> Result: 9-10 dead.
>
> Our beloved marines get an average of 17 at most.
> Result: 3 dead rhinos, 6 dead marines
>
> The veterans reach 19 on average with the final stand.
> Result: 3 dead rhinos, 5 stands dead, no damage to reaver
>
> The eldar get a final average of 18.
> Result: Squish, squish, squish, squish
>
> Conclusion: Much too wild. This makes the titans too invulnerable.
>
> F: 2nd edition but add +1 for every previous attacker, unless that
attacker
> was elite (which adds +2)
>
> This does not change things for the IG and tacticals.
> The veterans get an average of 20 (win) with stand 4
> Result: lose 3 rhinos and 3 stands. Score 3 hits.
>
> The eldar get an average of 19 with stand 3.
> Result: 2 stands lost, 1 hit scored.
>
> Conclusion: Elites might do it, with sufficient sacrifices. Others
still
> bite it.
>
> G: 2nd edition but add +2 for every previous attacker, +3 for
elites.
>
> IG will draw with stand 7.
> Result: 6 lost, 3 hits on titan
>
> Marines draw with stand 3.
> Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 2 stands. Score 3 hits.
>
> Veterans will win after the first marine stand..
> Result: Lose 3 rhinos and 1 stand. Cause 5 agonising hits.
>
> The eldar will win after 2 stands.
> Result: 2 lost, 2 hits.
>
> Conclusion: This seems pretty acceptable. It is costly, but can
succeed. I
> rather like this.
>
>
> These results should bear in mind that they are calculated on
average
> results, they do not take wild luck into account or the fact that
the
> infantry might very well have suffered casualties along the way.
>
> But it is up to people to decide���'�just though I wanted to show
this
to you.
>
> ______________________________________________________
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2000 - 23:15:59 UTC