----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Ramos <pramos2_at_...>
To: <netepic_at_egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff
> Hi!
>
>
>
> >> While 10000 years IS a long time given the social climate of the
> >> Imperium I would not be too surprised that nothing new gets done.
> >
> >Sorry Peter, but I couldn't disagree more.
>
> Great! Nothing like stimulating dialogue when you got nothing to do!
> >
> >First of all, it's a well-known fact that technology is following an
> >hyperbole curve - very slow in the beginning, ludicrously fast right
> >now. This is due to the "self-supporting" phenomenon - the advances
> >in technology allow for the construction of advanced tools which in
> >turn help research to advance even more etc. It would take some
> >massive world-wide catastrophe to clean the slate. Considering the
> >fact that the Imperium starts from an even more advanced state and an
> >even more distributed approach, I just cannot see how this could
> >happen. While the Heresy arguably WAS a major catastrophe, they STILL
> >had trans-light speed at the end. And ten thousand years with such a
> >start is more than enough to recover.
>
> I dont see how it can be well known that it is a hyperbole curve it we
> cannot predict the future and know if socially and economically we CAN
> progress. There have been brilliant mind throughout history, but ifthe
> general climate is one of suppression and superstition then ignoring
> geniuses and technological breakthrough is quite common. Copernicus laid
> down much of the theories that later Galileo would use, but thers 2
> centuries in between and still it was suppressed until the Age of reason
> (18th century) thats about 400 years. Also we assume that a higher
> technological base guarnatees quicker research-False! Look at the present
> situtation. I dont think anyone doubts that we have the technology now to
> explore our solar system with manned missions, heck there are working
ideas
> and engineering sketches of nuclear powered space craft much quicker than
> those used today. But why haven't we done so? There is no economical or
> pressure to do so. Invention doesn't just happen, there must be a driving
> force behind it.
> > Yes NASA is also working on a Ram jet powered Shuttle to travel to Mars,
with a manned crew. This has been in the works seens they found proof of
life. By the way the Ram Jet engine is from the late 40's-early 50's, and we
are just learning it full potental now in 2000 this almost a 100 years, and
probally will be 100 years by the time they have it right.
> >Second, it's not even true that progress was THAT slow in ancient
> >times. Not MILITARY progress at any rate. And historically, wartime
> >is the time in which military research gets huge boosts for obvious
> >reasons. I could imagine the Empire not devoting that much effort to
> >the welfare of its citizens, but... but... 10000 years of perpetual
> >war, and not only they didn't advance, but they couldn't even figure
> >out how to rebuild something which they already have in thousands of
> >perfectly working copies (e.g: Termie suits)??? Come on, this is
> >TOTALLY ludicrous.
>
> War has been and is a powerful incentive no doubt there, but you miss one
> crucial aspect of development. The will and organization to do so. The
> Imperium has neither. The fluff states that technology is viewed in
> superstitious manner. Also the fluff states that information is NOT shared
> that is the cornerstone of Imperial policy with just about everything. You
> cannot sustain any worthwhile research effort without coordination and
> sharing of information between branches. Case in point WWII and the
germans.
> Each project group was not only independent of each other but competed
> against each other for resouces. End result-redudant research and time
goals
> were not met and they failed. Imagine adding religious persecution and
> suppression of all knowledge out side one organization (adeptus
mechanicus)
> how easy would it be to develop something new? Not very easy. Also
remember
> the level of technological discovery you expect the Imperium to develop
with
> what they already have. Its easy to invent a automobile for example, then
> use that technology to power other similar inventions that derive from it
> because the breach is small. But look at Imperial technology, FTL travel,
> what can beat that? There might be something, but the chasm between the
two
> is great.
> >Your point would be better if you put like so, when US first got into
WWII some of there troops were armed just as they were in WWI. as the war
went on we improved our equipment. The point is all stayed the same till a
new war broke out.
> >Religious mumbo-jumbo... low-level rank and file goons, maybe. But
> >when you have 100 different war fronts at any given moment, you'll
> >MOST DEFINITELY want high-level competent technicians and
> >theoreticians who're getting assigned outrageous amounts of money to
> >research new nifty weapons with which to smite your enemies.
>
> Thats were you err, the Imperium by its fluff does NOT create an
enviorment
> were the most competent people are in charge or work towards a common
goal.
> The adeptus has SOLE control of this no one else. As a matter of fact they
> suppress and discourage outside developments as unpure, thats why they
have
> not capitalized on squat innovations! Also the adeptus doe NOT control
> resouces, yet another problem. The organization of the Imperium is such
that
> no one organization has control of all that is needed for this kind of
> development, its great for maintaining order, but murder for research.
> >
> >Sorry but I'll repeat myself: there's NO WAY than a technically
> >advanced civilization, spanning a whole galaxy, and in a situation of
> >perpetual warfare is not going to evolve in 10000 years. TEN THOUSAND
> >YEARS, for crying out loud!! Billions of planets! Uncountable
> >individuals... and not one of them comes up with something new??
>
> Thats the second point the Imperium, by fluff is NOT a technologically
> advanced civilzation. Cutting edge technology is NOT available to the
masses
> and not even most planets. There are thousands if not millions of planets
> that are not above feudal economy and tech. Remember teh worlds most
marines
> come from are savage low technology planets. Even hive planet the level of
> the common man is pretty low tech too. Only the elite have access to it.
> Heck, look at 40k who gets all the combi-weapons and digital finger
weapons,
> the upper caste of warriors not joe-shmoe space marine.
>
> This impacts directly on development. How do you expect a genius from a
> medieval planet to create a better FTL drive if he has never seen or heard
> of one? How do you expect a genius from a hive planet to get his ideas
> around when he will probably die at hands of the Inquisition because his
> novel idea must come from the warp. Sound familiar Sure this type of witch
> hunting against superior individuals has always happened. Invention is
> derived from society as a whole any part that does not support it will
> hinder it.
>
> So basically you have a society where:
>
> 1.Most worlds are not even "civilized" since they need agrarian feudal
style
> world to support the rest
> 2.Hive worlds were true technology is for the elite
> 3.One association controls all "knowledge" and actively crushes
competition
> 4.Another branch (Inquisition) actively persecutes and destroys anything
new
> because its tainted
> 5.Lack of any coordinated research effort that draws upon all humanities
> resouces
> 6.No system of stimulating research or harvesting new planet (you become a
> tech priest more on piety and purity than knowledge)
>
> The Imperium encompasses the absolute worst features of historical
> governments into one. It is a police state with religious overtones where
> citizens, even in hive cities are ignorant of true high tech. Such a
society
> is at a technological standstill, at a level even below the pace of
> innovations in antiquity.
>
> Having the tools for innovations is not enough if there is no desire.
>
> Thanks Luca very interesting stuff!
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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Received on Fri May 26 2000 - 21:45:06 UTC