Re: [NetEpic ML] Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff

From: Peter Ramos <pramos2_at_...>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:06:56 -0500

Hi!



>> While 10000 years IS a long time given the social climate of the
>> Imperium I would not be too surprised that nothing new gets done.
>
>Sorry Peter, but I couldn't disagree more.

Great! Nothing like stimulating dialogue when you got nothing to do!
>
>First of all, it's a well-known fact that technology is following an
>hyperbole curve - very slow in the beginning, ludicrously fast right
>now. This is due to the "self-supporting" phenomenon - the advances
>in technology allow for the construction of advanced tools which in
>turn help research to advance even more etc. It would take some
>massive world-wide catastrophe to clean the slate. Considering the
>fact that the Imperium starts from an even more advanced state and an
>even more distributed approach, I just cannot see how this could
>happen. While the Heresy arguably WAS a major catastrophe, they STILL
>had trans-light speed at the end. And ten thousand years with such a
>start is more than enough to recover.

I dont see how it can be well known that it is a hyperbole curve it we
cannot predict the future and know if socially and economically we CAN
progress. There have been brilliant mind throughout history, but ifthe
general climate is one of suppression and superstition then ignoring
geniuses and technological breakthrough is quite common. Copernicus laid
down much of the theories that later Galileo would use, but thers 2
centuries in between and still it was suppressed until the Age of reason
(18th century) thats about 400 years. Also we assume that a higher
technological base guarnatees quicker research-False! Look at the present
situtation. I dont think anyone doubts that we have the technology now to
explore our solar system with manned missions, heck there are working ideas
and engineering sketches of nuclear powered space craft much quicker than
those used today. But why haven't we done so? There is no economical or
pressure to do so. Invention doesn't just happen, there must be a driving
force behind it.
>
>Second, it's not even true that progress was THAT slow in ancient
>times. Not MILITARY progress at any rate. And historically, wartime
>is the time in which military research gets huge boosts for obvious
>reasons. I could imagine the Empire not devoting that much effort to
>the welfare of its citizens, but... but... 10000 years of perpetual
>war, and not only they didn't advance, but they couldn't even figure
>out how to rebuild something which they already have in thousands of
>perfectly working copies (e.g: Termie suits)??? Come on, this is
>TOTALLY ludicrous.

War has been and is a powerful incentive no doubt there, but you miss one
crucial aspect of development. The will and organization to do so. The
Imperium has neither. The fluff states that technology is viewed in
superstitious manner. Also the fluff states that information is NOT shared
that is the cornerstone of Imperial policy with just about everything. You
cannot sustain any worthwhile research effort without coordination and
sharing of information between branches. Case in point WWII and the germans.
Each project group was not only independent of each other but competed
against each other for resouces. End result-redudant research and time goals
were not met and they failed. Imagine adding religious persecution and
suppression of all knowledge out side one organization (adeptus mechanicus)
how easy would it be to develop something new? Not very easy. Also remember
the level of technological discovery you expect the Imperium to develop with
what they already have. Its easy to invent a automobile for example, then
use that technology to power other similar inventions that derive from it
because the breach is small. But look at Imperial technology, FTL travel,
what can beat that? There might be something, but the chasm between the two
is great.
>
>Religious mumbo-jumbo... low-level rank and file goons, maybe. But
>when you have 100 different war fronts at any given moment, you'll
>MOST DEFINITELY want high-level competent technicians and
>theoreticians who're getting assigned outrageous amounts of money to
>research new nifty weapons with which to smite your enemies.

Thats were you err, the Imperium by its fluff does NOT create an enviorment
were the most competent people are in charge or work towards a common goal.
The adeptus has SOLE control of this no one else. As a matter of fact they
suppress and discourage outside developments as unpure, thats why they have
not capitalized on squat innovations! Also the adeptus doe NOT control
resouces, yet another problem. The organization of the Imperium is such that
no one organization has control of all that is needed for this kind of
development, its great for maintaining order, but murder for research.
>
>Sorry but I'll repeat myself: there's NO WAY than a technically
>advanced civilization, spanning a whole galaxy, and in a situation of
>perpetual warfare is not going to evolve in 10000 years. TEN THOUSAND
>YEARS, for crying out loud!! Billions of planets! Uncountable
>individuals... and not one of them comes up with something new??

Thats the second point the Imperium, by fluff is NOT a technologically
advanced civilzation. Cutting edge technology is NOT available to the masses
and not even most planets. There are thousands if not millions of planets
that are not above feudal economy and tech. Remember teh worlds most marines
come from are savage low technology planets. Even hive planet the level of
the common man is pretty low tech too. Only the elite have access to it.
Heck, look at 40k who gets all the combi-weapons and digital finger weapons,
the upper caste of warriors not joe-shmoe space marine.

This impacts directly on development. How do you expect a genius from a
medieval planet to create a better FTL drive if he has never seen or heard
of one? How do you expect a genius from a hive planet to get his ideas
around when he will probably die at hands of the Inquisition because his
novel idea must come from the warp. Sound familiar Sure this type of witch
hunting against superior individuals has always happened. Invention is
derived from society as a whole any part that does not support it will
hinder it.

So basically you have a society where:

1.Most worlds are not even "civilized" since they need agrarian feudal style
world to support the rest
2.Hive worlds were true technology is for the elite
3.One association controls all "knowledge" and actively crushes competition
4.Another branch (Inquisition) actively persecutes and destroys anything new
because its tainted
5.Lack of any coordinated research effort that draws upon all humanities
resouces
6.No system of stimulating research or harvesting new planet (you become a
tech priest more on piety and purity than knowledge)

The Imperium encompasses the absolute worst features of historical
governments into one. It is a police state with religious overtones where
citizens, even in hive cities are ignorant of true high tech. Such a society
is at a technological standstill, at a level even below the pace of
innovations in antiquity.

Having the tools for innovations is not enough if there is no desire.

Thanks Luca very interesting stuff!

Peter
Received on Fri May 26 2000 - 15:06:56 UTC