> >>I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Chaos was my second most fighted opponent (after orks) some time ago
> >>and it had been never an easy one. I think Chaos cards tend to
> >>unbalance the game too much. At first, and you are right, I used to
> >>think they were almost game-breakers, but after lots of games and even
> >>some very hard-worked victories I've found that they are as
> >>unbalancing as Strategy cards in W40k.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>It's only a matter of luck, if your opponent gets the good ones, and
> >>he is not stupid, you're granted, even with a very good game, a defeat
> >>or if you go suicide on your last turn, a draw; there's no victory,
> >>because he kills too much of your army without much loose on his side.
> >>
> >How so? I played very good chaos players in my day (trained by me, hehe)
> >and still I pull out wins as frequently as I lose, great hand
> >non-withstanding.
> >
>
> I didn't say it's impossible to win against Chaos. What I've said
> is that,
> with good Chaos cards, Chaos is nearly impossible to win. If you don't
> believe, just do a little try: play a small (4k-6k) against Chaos
> (with SM
> for example), let him choose his Chaos cards (without you knowing
> which ones
> has him) and you'll see.
But... a player should never be allowed to choose the best cards... The
beauty of chaos is the randomness!
> OK, now you can expect the worst. You know that you can only use
> your Grey
> Knights once, and against one Greater demon ( and if you win the
> initiative). An Invisibility card on the greater demon will rest
> themselves
> helpless from shots in Advance fire;
> You have two choices: let them die (Now you've lost 400 points)
> or wait for
> himto use the card to save the demon in a shooting. But you can
> be waiting
> all time, because that's his game. Chaos MUST be won by the end of third
> turn or you DO have a problem (So, you lose the game).
> Now, what about killing a whole detachment of termies/veterans
> with the help
> of flatulence and a group of medium/good CC fighters(apart from cultists,
> are there bad Chaos CC fighters)? and so on...
>
> We've calculated that every Chaos card has a potencial to earn
> Chaos player
> (if good played) beetwen 1 and 4 points plus 5 more if there's also the
> possibility to grab an objective.
> And remember that low-point vitory condition for games <6k
Could I have a look at that formula? :)
> If this was a 5k game he'll probably go losing in first turn (as
> any Chaos
> player) but in second or third turn he'll get you. Your
> rtesources are too
> small to face the amount of looses they make to you. Yet, this goes for
> marines, eldars, ... and small numbers armies, but the problem is
> the same
> for big numbers armies, because it means low morale (except for Tyranids)
> and then Chaos strategy turns to "if I can rout a whole
> detachment charging
> one stand, I'll go for the most of them I can reach".
>
> >>
> >>
> >>Of course, when we talk of big games (12k+) this effect is canceled
> >>because your numbers can sustain some loses, but in small games (-6k)
> >>I don't like to play against Chaos. Why should I make an strategy to
> >>win if he has game spoilers on his hand? This is not the same as SM
> >>gunships. When I use gunships my opponent knows what he can expect and
> >>how to treat them. When I fight against Chaos I don't know what is he
> >>going to throw. Which is the price for gunships? And for Chaos cards?
> >>Just count and you'll see.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>So, for my viewing point there are three problems:
> >>
> >>1. Chaos cards are random, so you never know what are you facing (in
> >>the other hand, your opponent also doesn't)
> >>
> >>2. They are very very cheap. For 300 points you get three chaos cards,
> >>a Big One and no morale checks for his minions while he is alive
> >>
> >>3. There are some cards which are quite unbalancing when they are used
> >>the right way, the right moment(i.e. growth, horrible stench,
> >>uncontrolable flatulence, telekinesis, Warp Freenzy(!!!), Hypnotic
> >>gaze (!!!), plaguebearer(!!!), duplication, Invisibility(!!!) ). I
> >>think that some of them should only apply to troop stands, not sealed
> >>vehicles for obvious reasons.
> >>
> >Duplication? Thats no big deal, you can only use it on troop stands, not
> >vehicles or anything else, its an extra stand, hardly earth-shattering,
> >and it STILL counts toward your break point, it has liability as well.
>
> But it's a perfect end-of-combat phase objective grabber. Which distance
> does it appear? we assume coherency distance is enough. As it appears
> magicaly it would be possible to appear behind enemy lines? I
> think so. Nah,
> it's not a bad power but as other powers, let's you scratch some VP, that
> let you win in the end.
If you read the card it will say that it is played in the orders phase.
Objectives are counted in the end-phase. That should give the opponent quite
a few chances to kill off that single stand...
> >Invisibilty, the great boogie man, is pretty inconsequencial power when
> >you realize that the unit that is invisible cannot attack back either.
> >Its great to charge or advance troops in the same building and objective
> >and watch him squirm because he cannot do anything about it, not even
> >claim the objective. Other than trying to make the opponent waste some
> >fire, it not a game stopper. Growth, unless you use it on a greater
> >demon and go titan hunting its worthless. Too narrow a use for a big
> >yield, every other time you wind up killing minor troops you could have
> >killed without the card any way.
>
> So, you cannot let anything come close to titans and praetorians,
> for even
> that lonely bloodletter with that surviving Chaos cultist is a
> real threat.
> Normally you won't have enough firepower to wipe out all targets.
> Well, you
> can always bring an Imperator playing 5k game and let the other player
> scream "Cheeeeeeese!" all afternoon. You won't also win, but...
>
> The cards that reduce CAF like
> >uncontollable flatulence and horrible stench, can be easily thwarted by
> >not engaging in large close combat with chaos. Yo are supposed to shoot
> >them not play their game.You can always guess when the chaos player has
> >this card, he starts ammasing good CC troops around vital areas,
> >conforted by the fact he'll use those cards to keep you off. Just attack
> >several objectives at once make him choose which he'll keep, he can't
> >keep them all.
>
> Not with small armies. You don't have enough troops and
> firepower. Not with
> big armies, you have too much cannon fodder to hide, they'll get
> one stand
> of each unit and the rest of your troops will flee.
>
> Telekensis, after the netepic restriction on titans
> >and
> >praetorianns it's not that great anymore, only in conjunction with some
> >other dirty tricks, it yields a better result. Actually playing it on
> >your own models (like removing a vital model from a bad situation) is by
> >far better use than an offensive ploy.
>
> Well remember those Grey Knights worth 4VP? They found there was
> no Big One
> (telekineticed far inside those nearer woods ) but a lot of shots.
>
> Warp frenzy? Why is that so
> >good?
> >You have to play ALL you cards on one model, most of the time some
> >powers get wasted becuase the circumstance isn't optimal for a certain
> >power, besides a fear causing or CAF boost, haven't seen this do much
> >amongst experienced players, heck if you get invisibility you are
> >screwed, because all cards are played simultaneously, you end up with a
> >invisible unit that moves and can't attack, hardly what you want.
>
> Obviously, if you've got invisibility already, Warp Frenzy it's a good
> choice, it will raise your CAF 1 or 2 points, you also haveto
> check morale
> (is the big one alive and at sight?) and there's a chance of
> getting another
> CAF booster (like flatulence)
>
> >Hypnotic gaze is nice, but must operate within confines of the orders,
> >plus it doesn't affect titans or praetorians.
>
> But it does affect knights and SH tanks. I think that a SH alone
> can grab 2
> VP in one turn easily.
>
> >
> >It's been 9 years since the chaos rules came out, I rarely see something
> >new nowadays, as I said it's a matter of the learning curve. Nothing is
> >really as good as you think. Of course keep in mind net epic HAS close
> >the loop on a lot of abuse. But I just don't see any card being a big
> >deal. Every time I hear one mentioned on the list, a dozen ways around
> >it come to mind.
>
> The matter is no there's ONE game spoiler, but the combined
> effect of all of
> them might be. If you assume 2 VP for everycard and imagine 5 f them get
> good results, Chaos has 10VP more. On a smaller game (45-55 VP)
> this places
> Chaos close to victory, because your opponent has lost an
> important part of
> his army (15 -20%) and possibly his best Chaos fighters.
> I know it's difficult to rate their effect, but I think that
> early loses due
> to Chaos cards are heavily paid in the end.
But that's what you pay for! Chaos units are expensive due to the cards...
They SHOULD earn the chaos player some objectives...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>I also I think that Chaos cards add more colour to the game, BUT I'ts
> >>a long time since I said in my gaming group that I wouldn't play
> >>another game against chaos until chaos cards were accordly priced for
> >>their effects.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At the moment you can expect an average of 3 cards every 1000 - 1250
> >>points, so for a 5k game your opponent will hold 12 -15 cards. Only
> >>with three good cards he can get you 10 VP only smashing your best
> >>troops, don't say if he also gets objectives...
> >>
> >Isn't that the same ratio now? With the current rules I usually have
> >12-15 cards per 5-6k games. Remember 3 chaos cards DO NOT cost just 300
> >points for a greater demon, according to the rules each greater MUST
> >have AT LEAST 3 support cards attached to it, so the chaos cards are
> >definately not cheap. A modest support card attachment can run you about
> >600 points for 3 cards and the demon, imagine all five support cards and
> >throwing in good stuff. In essence you do get 3 chaos cards for every
> >1000-1250 points. Throw in demon engines and titans an you may see that
> >those 3 chaos cards can be as high as 2000+, more so in case of
> >primarchs who may attach chaos marine companies. They are NOT cheap.
>
> Well that's a good choice to start with, if you are playing 8k+
> but not for
> a smaller game, wwere you won't use more than 6 warmachines and
> one titan.
> In a smaller game you'll try to get lots of people to fight, you
> cannot buy
> a Banelord because you won't be able to take objectives. So my average of
> 1000 - 1250 will stay. Obviously, with Titans it will rise but
> I'm talking
> of smaller games, which tend to be the most common. Still the
> problem is in
> small games not big games.
>
> >>
> >>I think that as Chaos cards have a very clear effect on the
> >>game, besides from shielding greater demons, so they should be priced
> >>as Titan weapons. Let the chaos player keep a part of his army cost
> >>for cards and when he draws the cards, he pays for the ones he likes.
> >>These are kept in one side, the others, which he has not paid, could
> >>only be used to save demons. This would solve problem 2. If the payed
> >>cards where shown when drawed would solve problem 1. And for the third
> >>problem, perhaps a good adjustement of prices would be enough.
> >>
> >I disagree, chaos cards as per my explanation above ARE VERY expensive,
> >you pay for them in the way the army is set up. Their effect on the game
> >is more dramatic when an experienced players faces one who is not,
> >between to able players, its an edge, but a slim one. One can very
> >easily lose big, even with a flawless card game, all it takes is an
> >opponent who knows how to minimize your gains with the cards.
>
> Well, then try to play a game against a good Chaos player with the
> conditions I stated before. Or better, play a dozen games with this
> conditions. I assume that player quality odds are 50/50
>
> It's easy, if he wins all games it means that there is a combination of
> Chaos Cards that leads to victory, if so, I'm right and the only
> hope to win
> Chaos is bad luck on Chaos Player drawing cards.
>
> If he wins most of the games, then Chaos is not invincible but
> Chaos cards
> are unbalancing because make victory easier.
So what do you say? Remove the cards and chaos will be just another Space
Marine army... hooray!
> If there's a draw or almost a draw, You're right and you can take this
> message and strip it, tear it, burn it, give it to your dog (or
> even worst,
> to a baby), or cut it, or... (not necessary in this this order)
>
> If you win most or all the games, me and Chaos player will leave
> this list,
> throw our miniatures very far and start a new life as slug breeders (or
> something alike) ;)
>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Just think, I've got to pay for a chaplain that gives a +1 to CAF,
> >>(true it's every turn, but my opponent knows it exists and where he is
> >>and it can be voided killing him) while Chaos gets cards for free.
> >>
> >Again, they are NOT free, mekboy cards for the orks are free, eldar get
> >free speical cards, etc. Chaos cards are amongst the most expensive
> >cards to get because you MUST buy one greater demon and three support
> >cards. Even if you attached three rhinos to it, it would still cost 450
> >for three cards. Also it must be said that if you strictly apply the
> >cost formulas to greater demons they are no where near 300 points.
>
> Yes, but two points: support cards cost the same with and without
> cards, and
> don't forget morale aspects of a greater demon.
> But you may be right (I'm too lazy to apply cost formulas, I've
> got plenty
> of them at University (:-( ).
> Actually I'm against the use of any free card other than those that those
> not have impact on the game. Why should eldar get 4 stands for
> free? This is
> not fair, I mean, obviously every army has some benefits that don't have
> others but...FREE? I think this does not help the game balance.
>
> Beware, (before someone cuts my head off) I think the idea of free cards
> (whichever army applies to) is unbalancing, I don't mean that armies have
> special benefits per se.
>
> >So
> >again you are paying for those cards built in to the greater demon.In
> >other words the demons worth IS the chaos cards, even Magnus hyped up
> >beam is poor excuse to dump 300 point on a model with nothing else. The
> >chaos cards make the demons worth taking.
> >
> >>And of course, I think Warp Frenzy should be voided.
> >>
> >Nah, does good job of "voiding" itself. In 9 years I have only seen a
> >"frenzied" model do real good-once!
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Sorry to get so long.
> >>
> >Thank a bunch for the input Albert!!!
> >
>
> Ooops! I extended myself a bit too much again. I'm sorry.
>
> Albert Farr�
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Received on Thu Mar 08 2001 - 11:43:48 UTC