>From: Peter Ramos <primarch_at_...>
>Reply-To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
>To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Titan CC
>Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:15:48 -0500
>
>Hi!
>
>Albert Farr� Benet wrote:
>
>>Hi
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
>>
>>
>>
>>Chaos was my second most fighted opponent (after orks) some time ago
>>and it had been never an easy one. I think Chaos cards tend to
>>unbalance the game too much. At first, and you are right, I used to
>>think they were almost game-breakers, but after lots of games and even
>>some very hard-worked victories I've found that they are as
>>unbalancing as Strategy cards in W40k.
>>
>>
>>
>>It's only a matter of luck, if your opponent gets the good ones, and
>>he is not stupid, you're granted, even with a very good game, a defeat
>>or if you go suicide on your last turn, a draw; there's no victory,
>>because he kills too much of your army without much loose on his side.
>>
>How so? I played very good chaos players in my day (trained by me, hehe)
>and still I pull out wins as frequently as I lose, great hand
>non-withstanding.
>
I didn't say it's impossible to win against Chaos. What I've said is that,
with good Chaos cards, Chaos is nearly impossible to win. If you don't
believe, just do a little try: play a small (4k-6k) against Chaos (with SM
for example), let him choose his Chaos cards (without you knowing which ones
has him) and you'll see.
OK, now you can expect the worst. You know that you can only use your Grey
Knights once, and against one Greater demon ( and if you win the
initiative). An Invisibility card on the greater demon will rest themselves
helpless from shots in Advance fire;
You have two choices: let them die (Now you've lost 400 points) or wait for
himto use the card to save the demon in a shooting. But you can be waiting
all time, because that's his game. Chaos MUST be won by the end of third
turn or you DO have a problem (So, you lose the game).
Now, what about killing a whole detachment of termies/veterans with the help
of flatulence and a group of medium/good CC fighters(apart from cultists,
are there bad Chaos CC fighters)? and so on...
We've calculated that every Chaos card has a potencial to earn Chaos player
(if good played) beetwen 1 and 4 points plus 5 more if there's also the
possibility to grab an objective.
And remember that low-point vitory condition for games <6k
If this was a 5k game he'll probably go losing in first turn (as any Chaos
player) but in second or third turn he'll get you. Your rtesources are too
small to face the amount of looses they make to you. Yet, this goes for
marines, eldars, ... and small numbers armies, but the problem is the same
for big numbers armies, because it means low morale (except for Tyranids)
and then Chaos strategy turns to "if I can rout a whole detachment charging
one stand, I'll go for the most of them I can reach".
>>
>>
>>Of course, when we talk of big games (12k+) this effect is canceled
>>because your numbers can sustain some loses, but in small games (-6k)
>>I don't like to play against Chaos. Why should I make an strategy to
>>win if he has game spoilers on his hand? This is not the same as SM
>>gunships. When I use gunships my opponent knows what he can expect and
>>how to treat them. When I fight against Chaos I don't know what is he
>>going to throw. Which is the price for gunships? And for Chaos cards?
>>Just count and you'll see.
>>
>>
>>
>>So, for my viewing point there are three problems:
>>
>>1. Chaos cards are random, so you never know what are you facing (in
>>the other hand, your opponent also doesn't)
>>
>>2. They are very very cheap. For 300 points you get three chaos cards,
>>a Big One and no morale checks for his minions while he is alive
>>
>>3. There are some cards which are quite unbalancing when they are used
>>the right way, the right moment(i.e. growth, horrible stench,
>>uncontrolable flatulence, telekinesis, Warp Freenzy(!!!), Hypnotic
>>gaze (!!!), plaguebearer(!!!), duplication, Invisibility(!!!) ). I
>>think that some of them should only apply to troop stands, not sealed
>>vehicles for obvious reasons.
>>
>Duplication? Thats no big deal, you can only use it on troop stands, not
>vehicles or anything else, its an extra stand, hardly earth-shattering,
>and it STILL counts toward your break point, it has liability as well.
But it's a perfect end-of-combat phase objective grabber. Which distance
does it appear? we assume coherency distance is enough. As it appears
magicaly it would be possible to appear behind enemy lines? I think so. Nah,
it's not a bad power but as other powers, let's you scratch some VP, that
let you win in the end.
>Invisibilty, the great boogie man, is pretty inconsequencial power when
>you realize that the unit that is invisible cannot attack back either.
>Its great to charge or advance troops in the same building and objective
>and watch him squirm because he cannot do anything about it, not even
>claim the objective. Other than trying to make the opponent waste some
>fire, it not a game stopper. Growth, unless you use it on a greater
>demon and go titan hunting its worthless. Too narrow a use for a big
>yield, every other time you wind up killing minor troops you could have
>killed without the card any way.
So, you cannot let anything come close to titans and praetorians, for even
that lonely bloodletter with that surviving Chaos cultist is a real threat.
Normally you won't have enough firepower to wipe out all targets. Well, you
can always bring an Imperator playing 5k game and let the other player
scream "Cheeeeeeese!" all afternoon. You won't also win, but...
The cards that reduce CAF like
>uncontollable flatulence and horrible stench, can be easily thwarted by
>not engaging in large close combat with chaos. Yo are supposed to shoot
>them not play their game.You can always guess when the chaos player has
>this card, he starts ammasing good CC troops around vital areas,
>conforted by the fact he'll use those cards to keep you off. Just attack
>several objectives at once make him choose which he'll keep, he can't
>keep them all.
Not with small armies. You don't have enough troops and firepower. Not with
big armies, you have too much cannon fodder to hide, they'll get one stand
of each unit and the rest of your troops will flee.
Telekensis, after the netepic restriction on titans
>and
>praetorianns it's not that great anymore, only in conjunction with some
>other dirty tricks, it yields a better result. Actually playing it on
>your own models (like removing a vital model from a bad situation) is by
>far better use than an offensive ploy.
Well remember those Grey Knights worth 4VP? They found there was no Big One
(telekineticed far inside those nearer woods ) but a lot of shots.
Warp frenzy? Why is that so
>good?
>You have to play ALL you cards on one model, most of the time some
>powers get wasted becuase the circumstance isn't optimal for a certain
>power, besides a fear causing or CAF boost, haven't seen this do much
>amongst experienced players, heck if you get invisibility you are
>screwed, because all cards are played simultaneously, you end up with a
>invisible unit that moves and can't attack, hardly what you want.
Obviously, if you've got invisibility already, Warp Frenzy it's a good
choice, it will raise your CAF 1 or 2 points, you also haveto check morale
(is the big one alive and at sight?) and there's a chance of getting another
CAF booster (like flatulence)
>Hypnotic gaze is nice, but must operate within confines of the orders,
>plus it doesn't affect titans or praetorians.
But it does affect knights and SH tanks. I think that a SH alone can grab 2
VP in one turn easily.
>
>It's been 9 years since the chaos rules came out, I rarely see something
>new nowadays, as I said it's a matter of the learning curve. Nothing is
>really as good as you think. Of course keep in mind net epic HAS close
>the loop on a lot of abuse. But I just don't see any card being a big
>deal. Every time I hear one mentioned on the list, a dozen ways around
>it come to mind.
The matter is no there's ONE game spoiler, but the combined effect of all of
them might be. If you assume 2 VP for everycard and imagine 5 f them get
good results, Chaos has 10VP more. On a smaller game (45-55 VP) this places
Chaos close to victory, because your opponent has lost an important part of
his army (15 -20%) and possibly his best Chaos fighters.
I know it's difficult to rate their effect, but I think that early loses due
to Chaos cards are heavily paid in the end.
>
>>
>>
>>I also I think that Chaos cards add more colour to the game, BUT I'ts
>>a long time since I said in my gaming group that I wouldn't play
>>another game against chaos until chaos cards were accordly priced for
>>their effects.
>>
>>
>>
>>At the moment you can expect an average of 3 cards every 1000 - 1250
>>points, so for a 5k game your opponent will hold 12 -15 cards. Only
>>with three good cards he can get you 10 VP only smashing your best
>>troops, don't say if he also gets objectives...
>>
>Isn't that the same ratio now? With the current rules I usually have
>12-15 cards per 5-6k games. Remember 3 chaos cards DO NOT cost just 300
>points for a greater demon, according to the rules each greater MUST
>have AT LEAST 3 support cards attached to it, so the chaos cards are
>definately not cheap. A modest support card attachment can run you about
>600 points for 3 cards and the demon, imagine all five support cards and
>throwing in good stuff. In essence you do get 3 chaos cards for every
>1000-1250 points. Throw in demon engines and titans an you may see that
>those 3 chaos cards can be as high as 2000+, more so in case of
>primarchs who may attach chaos marine companies. They are NOT cheap.
Well that's a good choice to start with, if you are playing 8k+ but not for
a smaller game, wwere you won't use more than 6 warmachines and one titan.
In a smaller game you'll try to get lots of people to fight, you cannot buy
a Banelord because you won't be able to take objectives. So my average of
1000 - 1250 will stay. Obviously, with Titans it will rise but I'm talking
of smaller games, which tend to be the most common. Still the problem is in
small games not big games.
>>
>>I think that as Chaos cards have a very clear effect on the
>>game, besides from shielding greater demons, so they should be priced
>>as Titan weapons. Let the chaos player keep a part of his army cost
>>for cards and when he draws the cards, he pays for the ones he likes.
>>These are kept in one side, the others, which he has not paid, could
>>only be used to save demons. This would solve problem 2. If the payed
>>cards where shown when drawed would solve problem 1. And for the third
>>problem, perhaps a good adjustement of prices would be enough.
>>
>I disagree, chaos cards as per my explanation above ARE VERY expensive,
>you pay for them in the way the army is set up. Their effect on the game
>is more dramatic when an experienced players faces one who is not,
>between to able players, its an edge, but a slim one. One can very
>easily lose big, even with a flawless card game, all it takes is an
>opponent who knows how to minimize your gains with the cards.
Well, then try to play a game against a good Chaos player with the
conditions I stated before. Or better, play a dozen games with this
conditions. I assume that player quality odds are 50/50
It's easy, if he wins all games it means that there is a combination of
Chaos Cards that leads to victory, if so, I'm right and the only hope to win
Chaos is bad luck on Chaos Player drawing cards.
If he wins most of the games, then Chaos is not invincible but Chaos cards
are unbalancing because make victory easier.
If there's a draw or almost a draw, You're right and you can take this
message and strip it, tear it, burn it, give it to your dog (or even worst,
to a baby), or cut it, or... (not necessary in this this order)
If you win most or all the games, me and Chaos player will leave this list,
throw our miniatures very far and start a new life as slug breeders (or
something alike) ;)
>
>>
>>
>>Just think, I've got to pay for a chaplain that gives a +1 to CAF,
>>(true it's every turn, but my opponent knows it exists and where he is
>>and it can be voided killing him) while Chaos gets cards for free.
>>
>Again, they are NOT free, mekboy cards for the orks are free, eldar get
>free speical cards, etc. Chaos cards are amongst the most expensive
>cards to get because you MUST buy one greater demon and three support
>cards. Even if you attached three rhinos to it, it would still cost 450
>for three cards. Also it must be said that if you strictly apply the
>cost formulas to greater demons they are no where near 300 points.
Yes, but two points: support cards cost the same with and without cards, and
don't forget morale aspects of a greater demon.
But you may be right (I'm too lazy to apply cost formulas, I've got plenty
of them at University (:-( ).
Actually I'm against the use of any free card other than those that those
not have impact on the game. Why should eldar get 4 stands for free? This is
not fair, I mean, obviously every army has some benefits that don't have
others but...FREE? I think this does not help the game balance.
Beware, (before someone cuts my head off) I think the idea of free cards
(whichever army applies to) is unbalancing, I don't mean that armies have
special benefits per se.
>So
>again you are paying for those cards built in to the greater demon.In
>other words the demons worth IS the chaos cards, even Magnus hyped up
>beam is poor excuse to dump 300 point on a model with nothing else. The
>chaos cards make the demons worth taking.
>
>>And of course, I think Warp Frenzy should be voided.
>>
>Nah, does good job of "voiding" itself. In 9 years I have only seen a
>"frenzied" model do real good-once!
>
>>
>>
>>Sorry to get so long.
>>
>Thank a bunch for the input Albert!!!
>
Ooops! I extended myself a bit too much again. I'm sorry.
Albert Farr�
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Received on Thu Mar 08 2001 - 00:20:57 UTC