Re: [Epic] Psychic Phase [was: Re: Titan Legions]

From: Brett Hollindale <agro_at_...>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:08:45 GMT

At 08:10 AM 20/1/97 -0500, you (Aaron) wrote:
>
>Excerpts from Epic: 20-Jan-97 Re: [Epic] Psychic Phase [w.. by Brett
>Hollindale_at_powerup
>> >> Guild Biker Forces.
>> >> The best bikes in the game (+4 CAF) and almost the cheapest. (Only IG get
>> >> cheaper bikes and then only just cheaper.) And if these stumpy bikes ever
>> >> break (not likely!) they don't vanish like IG bikes!
>> >
>> >Oh, that's right, because it's better than IG, it MUST be cheesy. I can't
>> >beleive this, you are comparing two units and saying the better one is
>> >cheesy???
>>
>> No, I'm comparing all of the similar units and suggesting that since one of
>> them costs the same as almost all of the others and is actually
>> substantially better, (that would be higher CAF, better moral, higher
>> breakpoint), then THAT would be cheesy...
>
>Just a quick point: the Squat's don't pay for the higher breakpoint in
>points when they're bought, they pay for it by giving more VPs when
>they're finally broken. So basically you're paying a couple points
>over, say, Marine bikes for a +1 CAF. <shrug>
>
>[snip]
>> > And remember, if you DO break the company you get alot
>> >of VP's for it...8 for a 600pt company. And yes, squats morale is better,
>> >because they are SQUATS...
>>
>> Of course! And here I stupidly thought that their moral was better because
>> they were "cheesy"! When all along it was because they were SQUATS...
>
>Heh. It's kinda like how the Marines also have a 2+ morale because
>they're Marines... and because you pay for the honor. An IG tac platoon
>is 10 stands of dogfaces (10cm move, 50cm shot at 5+ 0) for 200 points.
>A Squat Warrior squad is nine "tac" stands plus a Hearthguard for 250.
>So, for the two points of morale and swapping the section HQ with a
>Hearthguard, the Squats pay another 50 points. And, as far as I'm
>concerned the Hearthguard is *not* worht 50 points. They're handy, but
>they're not command stands and can be targetted if your opponenet so
>desires, so they tend to die quickly. (And the higher breakpoint, as
>I've said before, is paid for in VP: the 250 point Warrior squad coughs
>up 4 VPs.)
>
>[snip]
>> Actually, the orcs have pulsa rokkits too. The point which seems to have
>> escaped you is that the squats get it cheaper and better than anyone else.
>> And hardly anyone takes Landtrains, because Colossi are SO much cheesier...
>
>Actually, in the US it's more because no one has the models -- they've
>been out of production here for quite some time. You should've seen how
>quickly they vanished from the racks at Games Day '96, when GWUS had a
>special run of them done!
>
>In my case, it's because I haven't painted one up yet, and I prefer not
>fielding unpainted minis.
>
>[Goliath Mega-Cannon]
>> >That's right i get one barage per turn with each and it's variable. I
>> >don't know what problems YOU'VE had with them, but they aren't as usful as
>> >you think except against eldar. But yeah of course, somcething
>> >potentially harding hitting than an IG barrage weapon so it's cheesy.
>>
>> That's CHEAPER _and_ HARDER HITTING. And, yeah, that's cheesy...
>
>Actually, it's not harder hitting. (Bombards always get 9 BPs, and have
>the same -3 save) And I'd imagine it's cheaper because there's only one
>model, so it's easier to kill than a battery.
>
>[snip]
>> >> Other units:
>> >> Other units that cost the same as anyone elses units and have better break
>> >> points thus giving up VP harder than other armies... (eg. Squat
>> >> tarantulas have a break point of 4 out of 5 instaed of the usual 3 out of
>> >> 5.)
>> >
>> >Yeah, that's the nature of squats, higher break points and better morale,
>>
>> more cheese...
>
>Even if it's paid for?
>
>> >eldar, Space
>> >Marine, Squats, Chaos, etc... all you have done is pick out good units for
>> >squats and call them cheesy CAUSE THEY ARE GOOD... you compared them to
>> >other units and called them cheesy cause they are better...
>>
>> Better AND cheaper OR better and the same cost. I compared the squat stuff
>> to the second third and fourth best units of the same type and the squats
>> came up trumps every time.
>
>Erm, I wouldn't say that. Near the top, yes, on the top, no, especially
>if you come up with some situations. For example, even given the TL
>skimmer rules, I'd usually rather have Eldar Jetbikes, just because my
>opponents will pin one or two bikes in a squad with something that's
>either very cheap or very mean, and then my squad can't go where I want
>it to go... the Eldar don't have that problem. And you never really
>brought up the Squat infnatry; I don't think you can call Berserkers the
>cream of the crop when it comes to close combat. ^_-
>
>[snip]
>> You don't seem particularly convinced by any of my arguments, but then it is
>> wisely written that "there are none so blind as those who will not see".
>> (Which means in this case that if you don't want the answer, don't ask the
>> question.)
>
>I'd counter that you don't seem particularly convinced by our (myself,
>Mark, and... er. Oops! Whoever you're replying to here. I don't
>suppose you can put a name up top, instead of "you wrote:"?)... anyway,
>our arguements either. <shrug>
> Aaron Teske
> Mithramuse+_at_...
> Squat Leader, Den'Len Fetch

Well, I wouldn't agree with you there. I have considered your comments (and
others) and a lot of them make sense. (I especially like all the comments
about how unreasonable - I'll avoid the "cheese" word - it would be to take
an Overlord Company into a game smaller than say 5000 pts :-) It would be
true that I haven't been swayed by The Unknown Dwarf's ranting, but he
hasn't actually said very much either...

I'm very disappointed in myself for not doing the maths right on the costs
of the bikes! :-(
I really thought that squat bikes were both better AND cheaper than everyone
elses. (If you want to buy a second company, then only the squats and eldar
can, and my gut feeling about the price is correct isn't it?)
And I still think that they represent value for money far in excess of their
point cost...

As to the snap fire weapons not being super heavy, I guess that technically
that would be correct, but we read the description and looked at the model
and drew the wrong conclusion. (I would agree that it is not stated
anywhere that the Thunderfire IS super heavy, but since the model is the
same size as the Goliath and bolted to the ground - well it did seem like a
reasonable assumption...)

I still think that one d6+4 barrage points (average 7 or 8) save at -3
IGNORING cover for 150pts is cheaper AND better than one 9pt barrage save at
-3 for 200 pts. The all your eggs in the one basket point is a good one,
but it also allows you to concentrate defenses at that point. (I would
prefer to have an IG Co too, but for me it is because I enjoy the challenge
of winning with an inferior army. :-)

Of course you are right about the squat infantry, I didn't mention it
because it ISN'T cheesy. But I guess I could ask, how much infantry does
your average squat warlord field? (Not too much in my experience...)

And finally, I CAN put your name at the top, but my software won't do it
automatically like some nicer software I have seen. (Please don't read
anything into the inclusion of or lack of a name - or, in the bard's
immortal words "what's in a name?")

Agro
Received on Tue Jan 21 1997 - 10:08:45 UTC