Re: [Epic] R: Sv: [almost Epic] Codices

From: John Chapman <john_at_...>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:40:47 +1100 (EST)

> Yes, it's all true, but if you like Thunderhawk, then, get Space Marines!
> What I mean is that you always should consider an army for what it can do
> as a whole, and that it make no sense trying to compare every single unit
> point for point.
        Ahhh thats where I think we have a bit of a disagreement. Ok the
way GW games work is that most armies get some things cheaper than others.
Most of the 'cheese' that people complain about in this game is usually the
result of one of the 'underpriced' units being taken in excessive numbers
(add your least favorite unit here). This is probably where the game breaks
down the most. For example if you were playing Chaos you would probably think
of loading up quite heavily on Lords Of Change and Bloodthirsters and
 do a lot of assaulting while cutting back lots on other areas.Ill let people
figure out for themselves how/if the lists can be rorted in such a way to
make these bargain units unbalance the games - especially wrt building armies
that other armies have severe difficulty in coping with , or armies that can
only be defeated by VERY specialized opposition (ie something abnormal like
an all flyer army or something (ok not a good example). If all units cost
what they were worth we probably wouldnt see this happen much.

> Eldar get falcons and fancy AT weapons than the other army can only dream
> of:
        Ummm I dont have a problem with falcons. Theyre a decent average sort
or tank. 2FP and 5 armour isnt anything people are going to complain too much
about. Their abilities (speed , skimmer transport) make them a good (albeit
expensive) transport and as a tank when used properly are fair opposition
for similar units (Predators would be the closest , maybe Lemann Russ's
next after that). Ok theyre weaker in plain shooting/armour but their
mobility and pop ups can allow you to pick targets.
        Fancy AT weapons - ok if I was an Ork player Id be jealous. Chaos
AND Imperium both get better AT stuff than Eldar - heck the Land Raider wins
that competition hands down - the main competition coming from imperial
support platforms.

> all you have to do is try to gain the best from every single one of your
> superior weaponary, so, if you don't want to be "Overkilled" by gargoyles,
> support your flyers at best with flak and snap fire, and send your prized
        How am I meant to use flak to support my flyers. This is what I was
whining about. I dont think eldar flyers are particularly weak. Theyre just
not so great that they should be used as a justification to screw over the
one flak unit that Eldar has. The Fire Prism isnt a bad all round unit but
as the only Flak unit they get taking an interpretation of the rules that makes
it have 1fp as flak is a little on the unreasonable side. As it is 1AT shot
as flak is worse off than a 2FP shot unless youre shooting THawks.

> Nightwing where a little hevy puching unit can do the difference (i.e.
> things that other flyers can't do).
        Any flyer CAN do anything - some just arent very good at some things.
What I LIKE about nightwings - theyre great for trashing enemy fighters such
as Doomwings and FBz. Theyre not so great against some other targets and overall
while good you pay a FAIR price for them. Theyre not so cheap that you
should start thinking about crippling flak units .

> In first stage of theVietnam war the USAAF had different kind of fighters
> suitable for ground attak but send Phantoms where they could make the
> difference (better speed, firepower, survivability), not where they could
> be shot down for little gain.
        Yup works fine in the real world. Remember here we ARE talking about
a game. Primarily this should be fun. Secondly it needs to be balanced (namely
because it isnt much fun KNOWING youre going to get whipped just because you
took army a and your opponent took army b:. Depending on the army lists
GW wants to give you for a game this can be the case however. Ever see any
High Elves vs Dark Elves WHFB matchups before the new HE book came out ? Thats
an example of a BAD balance problem. I dont think that any overall lists in
E40K are that bad but you can take some armies that opponents will have real
trouble with.if they have taken a 'balanced' army rather than something
specifically designed to take advantage of a certain weakness (If id wanted
to play paper/scissors/rock.......especially in a situation where any 2
of the 3 choices was going to be a losing one..............).

> >From the beginning the eldar army has been peculiar for beeng a difficult
> army to play:
> if you don't like it, chose one that suit better to you.
        I play them cos thats what I started with back in the days of Space
Marine. I dont feel like 'investing' in another army (and god forbid trying
to paint another one - in E40k terms we're talking 6-7 thousand points worth
of stuff here - most of which is painted). They play in their own way but so
do most of the E40k armies. I dont have a particular problem with it.
        The big advantage of eldar are a:mobility b:they have units in almost
every class. Down side - not much stands out as absurdly cheap (though they
should have made the Aspect>Exarch upgrade worthy or some thought
rather than something hard to avoid) and they arent very tough.

 If a unit is a problem - and there are a few
that have the potential to be - then maybe they should be fixed. Theres no
reason to go and make units worse when theyre not a problem. Theres also
not much point in making redundant units - ie a unit such that an army can
always take a different one which just does the job better - ever noticed
all the old Ork vehicles and how a lot of players only ever took a few of
the myriads of types?.......
        That said eldar arent particularly weak overall. In fact (ok Ork players
 feel free to protest) Orks would probably be the first army Id list as
needing a bit of a boost. Not a huge one - just a bit..........

> (No offence meant JAC)
        None taken. I just think you missed the point I was trying to make
that the concept 'eldar flyers are so good that they were meant to get crap
flak' was not a particualarly sound one.Feel free to punch holes through the
arguments that Ive tried to make against some of the stuff you posted too
its not impossible that Ill see things your way eventually :).
                                                JAC
> Pippero
>
Received on Thu Jan 01 1970 - 00:00:00 UTC