RE: [Epic] RGMW Newsgroup.
> > Depended on initiative a lot. Move first and those jetbikes on
> > charge
> > got to sit there looking impotent. MOve second and they just didnt
> > come (
> > actually that was probably the nastiest thing about Mr Chaos - he had
> > the best
> > luck of winning initiative when needed :|.........). Dropping a thawk
> > BEHIND
> > the first firers and then letting them charge in (hey the marines
> > charged in
> > the shortest path - damn there were too many thawk owners in our
> > group....)
> > made FF worthless - at least for the falcons/tempests. Usually the
> > result was
> > most of the targets died. Then next turn of course the bikes had the
> > option
> > do nothing and stay away or charge marines on FF who have no arc
> > probs. And
> > assuming they lived its only an even fight btw pretty much even points
> > units
> > (ok the bikes are a little cheaper). *sigh*
The Eldar player is doing a big mistake here. If Eldar have to move first
so it is senseless to charge anything with jetbikes those bikes have to be
pulled back blocking the rear of tempests and other expensive tanks so it
is physically impossible for a (chaos) marine stand to touch the back of
the eldar tank.
That is vital and very basic for Eldar commanders.
> > > Changing the pop-up rule does make a big difference, to Eldar more
> > than any
> > > other army.
> > depends what you mean by 'change' it was more 'interpret' as the
> > rules
> > were somewhat ambigous in places- this being one of them.
> -------> Interpret Schmerpret - I don;t recall seeing "pop ups must go
> before other units in the FF phase" anywhere, just that only other units
> on FF could fire back, and yes this does allow one to be mean if the
> other person doesn't have much FF and wait til he's shot everything
> before using the pop-up units. I've seen what you do as a house rule,
> and could probably be talked into, but not if I was an Eldar excusive
> player, as that change doesn't impact orks or chaos at all, and with
> Imperials it affects what, Land Speeders? There's one army it
> weakens.(and yes, I know Chaos could take Speeders : ))
Sure. They pop-up the moment they actually shoot. That is true in both SM2
> Weapon fits: Nasty comboes, for sure. Mine went like this: Heat
> Lance + Tremor Cannon, Pulsar + Power Fist, Pulsar + Tremor Cannon,
> Warlock has PL + Power Fist. I think the Pulsar + Tremor Cannon was the
> most effective single one, but I've done well with all of them at one
> point or another.
I have a battle group with 6 missile launcher wings sharing 4 pulsars and
2 tremor cannons between them. Strategy: use range advantage, FF.
My second battle group has:
Power fist/heat lance/2 lascannon wings
2 pulsar/2 lascannon wings
pulsar/distortion cannon/one of each wing
This one gets in close (not too close perhaps). The second titan easily
kills a reaver while a warlord is in big trouble and an imperator looses
lots of shields. The first damages/kills an imperator. while the third is
equipped in a more flexible role. The D-cannon is mounted only so I have
one of those weapons available. Helps to keep balance.
Power fist/psy lance/2 lascannon wings. Go titan hunting or tank/building
pulsar/psy lance/one of each wing. Tactically flexible. Use against Chaos.
Attack cannons of Khorne, tanks (deamon engines) and a greater deamon at
the same time. Or charge the GD if the opponent allows it (unlikely).
> > > -------> Cards were handy, but use them freely in CC and suddenly
> > those
> > > non-psychic shots start to hurt. The Eldar rarely had a problem
> > > concentrating force as the elites could be asissted by jetbike
> > swarms to get
> > > the multiple attacker bonus's.
> > True but under cover only 3 of the 5 swarms were useful. Damn
> > were
> > jet bikes ever more useful than the more expensive vypers.
> --------> Yep. OOOHh -longer range shots! OOOHHHHH!
> > > --------> Ok, typical Eldar army in our neck of the woods:
> > > Wind Riders + Warlock, Spirit Host + Free Avatar, Falcon Host
> > +Harlequins,
> > > Guardian Host + Free Scouts.
> > > You might see a Warlock titan, might see a phantom host depending on
> > battle
> > > size. Exarchs are nice but at 100 pts per stand they're also absent
> > from all
> > > but the biggest fights. In smaller fights we'd drop the guardians,
> > > sometimes they'd be replaced by a jetbike host due to player taste.
> > The only
> > > thing you would see 3 cards worth might be prism cannons, though
> > usually
> > > fewer were present. The avatar would be dumped for a warlock quite
> > often
> > > also, against Chaos. Some players favored war walkers and would take
> > 2-3
> > > cards worth of those.
> > Hmm heres where we differ. I HATED the spirit host. First 2
> > games
> > I played against chaos he wrecked himself getting just enough
> > objectives
> > and kill points to get close to the limit (I would have POUNDED him
> > the next
> > turn with heaps of low strength units and few chaos cards) at about
> > the 2nd
> > or 3rd turn. Hes sitting around looking desperately for a way to get a
> > few
> > extra points. Freaking Nurgles rotted the SH Warlock for 5 points and
> > got
> > another 2-3 points worth of bystanders. 2 Times in 2 games this
> > happened and
> > pushed him just over the limit. Only ever took the spirit host once
> > more.
> > Must have been fate or something but a vortex that missed a titan
> > rolled 10cm
> > into the middle of a forest and landed right on.............Game over
> > AGAIN.
> ------> The Spirit Host was pretty fragile, though some of yours sounds
> like just bad luck. I just have a thing for dreadnoughts, even though
> many sucked. Built in Warlock was nice vs Chaos too. This was mainly a
> sit & shoot force for me.
I never use the spirit host against chaos or nids. With those cards the
warlock dies too fast.
> > The same sort of problem stopped me taking exarchs.
> -------> Oh - don't get me started...I've had 'em knock out titans, but
> mostly I've had 'em cough up 4 vp's for 4 easy shots...
Kill 2 of them for 4 VPs. Very good ratio. They need a hawk squad to hide
behind. Once got a det standing in a building (no arty left to hurt)
broken by one tarantula det. They needed a 7+ to hit. :(((((
> > The last was lucky the first 2 merely par for the course.Also I always
> > thought
> > falcons did the same sort of job as war walkers merely much
> > better.......
> ------> We just liked the redone mini's, though I have two sets of the
War Walkers need different tactics than falcons. They cannot pop-up. Use
advance to guard your other forces. Be able to kill opponents winning CC.
> > I always saw tempests as the ultimate target for THawked troops
> > and
> > titans - had 3 , rarely used them.I preferred DA's to Dragons -
> > falcons could
> > do the tank hunting themselves :).
> -------> there's that pop-up thing again. Guess which detachment always
> went last in our FF phase?
Tempests are great. Marines charging them from the front are dead and they
cannot touch them from behind (because other CHEAP stuff like jetbikes,
guardians or dire avangers is standing in the way).
Target for titans? Never. Tempests shoot last after falcons stripped
shields from titans.
> > >
> > > ------> yeah, I know. Keeps coming up somehow.
> > > I think our particular case of mutual befuddlement boils down to two
> > things:
> > > 1) Different pop-up rules which drop the Eldar a notch IMO, making
> > Chaos a
> > > notch more competitive indirectly.
> > Yup there may have been a few others too.
> > > 2) Your guys found some way to make the Chaos grunts effective by
> > getting
> > > them to the decisive point of the battle which I admit still baffles
> > me. A
> > > 20cm move just ain't that good. Marines, sure - rhinos, land
> > raiders,
> > > T-hawks, even deathdealers, but hoofing it : ) is just slow. Were
> > you
> > > playing on a small table? ; )
> > Well the table was about 250cm long by 115cm wide. The distance
> > between set up lines was about 75-80 cm (just under normal but not
> > much).
> > Not wanting to have a large amount of worthless objectiveless ground
> > in the
> > middle typically there were 3 objectives on each side and 2 in the
> > middle.
> > Trolls and minos could easily (ie first turn) cover the ones on the
> > chaos side.
> > As for the middle - stretching it a bunch of minos (trolls were
> > unreliable)
> > could make it by turn 2 - and really be there by turn 3 (most games
> > tended
> > to go 3-4 turns). I never saw either unit get right up the back - that
> > was
> > always left to marines.Still they could come into play on 4-5
> > objectives - which
> > isnt too bad.
> > > 3) A greater emphasis on marine equipment - mainly in the case of
> > the massed
> > > tarantula fire which only makes a difference given #1 above, as here
> > they'd
> > > just be easy targets for falcons- which I admit we didn't use on
> > that scale.
> > > One chapter, maybe two at most in one battle. and BTW, if more than
> > 2 of
> > > anything is cheesy, tarantula-man is way over the mark...: )
> > The marines definately gave chaos mobility they otherwised
> > lacked. I
> > really really hated that Q&A that turned chaos from decent to gross
> > (thanks
> > Mark Watts - amazing who was the chaos general in the Epic battles
> > book - heck
> > it could have just been a ploy to sell more minis to chaos players too
> > :) ).
> > Heck even with your rules,assuming the geometry is right -
> > points wise
> > a fair fight is 6 falcons vs 15! tarantulas. 6 Falcs go first - 12
> > Tarants
> > remain - which should blast just under 3 falcons on average
> ------> But the Eldar will usually have lots of stuff on FF, while the
> Chaos player will not. My FF's will go last, after you've fired
> > - + whatever
> > they can get in advance fire.
> -------> Can't hit me with advance fire as I'm back down again, out of
Yes! Anyone using advance order against Eldar has to have a good reason
(oh, advance orders ARE usefull in certain situations). Shooting Eldar
with advance orders is nearely impossible.
> > Yes the chaos player stretched this the most.
> > There was an episode early on where we had 2 allied armies (4 players
> > , 2 a side) . He turned up with 6 Tarantula batteries and 7 THawks.
> > His partner saved
> > us the trouble of finding some big sticks and politely explained he
> > wanted
> > some CHALLENGE in the game (quick army redesign followed). Usually 4
> > Tarantula
> > batteries and a few too many Thawks was the best we could talk him
> > down to
> > (hey theyre so cheap-you can have 650 points of bikes why cant I have
> > 650
> > points of .........).
> -------> If he's going to load up on t-hawks you have to grab snapfire
> units - the Eldar had one of the best. To me, anything over 3 t-hawks
> (enough to move one company) is fishy, and he shouldn't compain if you
> have 3 or 4 AA units.
IMHO T-hawks for LOYAL marines do not overstretch the mark. I played
12000+ SM2 battles with my Eldar against an entire Chapter bringing 20+
T-hawks along, transporting about 2/3 of their infantry.
T-hawks are more common than Rhinos on my tabeltop and I have nothing
against them. We get about even number of wins on both sides even if I
only bring 2 or 3 firestorms. Protect your expensive units with cheap ones
if you have to move first.
T-hawks are a source for easy VPs. One model which only has a 4+ save
and hardly any CC ability gives you 1 VP. Jetbikes kill lots of them.
(Skimmers can charge T-hawks.)
Every time a T-hawk shoots its barrage the opponent may have made a
Received on Thu Jan 01 1970 - 00:00:00 UTC
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