Re: [Epic] -Chaos- Tactic Critique

From: Scott Shupe <shupes_at_...>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:50:00 -0400

Miller, Chris wrote:
>
[2nd edition]
[Bloodthirster]
> > My opponents were generally smart enough to not even
> >bother shooting at it (unless they were trying to strip cards,
> >in which case it's a good a target as any), because they know
> >it's not going to accomplish much of anything.
>
> ----He worked OK against those armies who had charge units as well -
> the Orky cult of speed, , some bike units, etc. Other than this, it
> was use the cards to keep him alive til he can do something...

        Never had the pleasure of facing orks, unfortunately
(really big detachments with poor morale! yeah!)

> > There is - the Banelord sucks (simple, and to the
> >point).
> >
> > 900 points for a short-ranged titan that can't use
> >FF orders.
>
> -----> Taken. It's main weapons are 75 cm and 50cm though -
> about like the rest of chaos...

        Exactly. So why pay so much when you can get
the same elsewhere in the army, for less points?

> >Advance orders suck, and it's not fast enough to really catch
> >anything in CC. And the amazingly high price tag means that
> >in a normal battle, you can't take any other titans to give
> >some much needed fire support.
>
> ----> Normal for us was 5-6000 pts. Room for a couple in there.

        Geez. You must normally take the minimum in GDs
if you have a couple of titans in 5-6000 point games and
one of those titans is the banelord.

> Speedwise it's not better or worse than other Warlords, and
> honestly I usually don't have a problem with the enemy moving towards
> me.

        It's fairly easy to stay away from the Banelord
& just shoot it until it dies and coughs up 9 VPs,
considering it's speed and range. I've certainly seen
it happen often enough.

> > Chaos already has bunches of nasty short-ranged
> >weapons and machines that are good in CC. It doesn't need
> >to pay 900 points for a fragile titan that already covers
> >those bases.
>
> ----> For chaos it has "normal" range and the void shields will
> suck up 6 hits in one turn -better than chaos cards. Should survive
> long enough to get somewhere.

        I guess it depends what you're facing. As I've
said before, when I started playing I was primarily facing
off against eldar. I've never seen the Banelord survive
long enough to get *anywhere*.

> >> (My view - more stuff than a regular warlord
> >
> > How so? It's got 5 weapons but any warlord titan
> >can have 5 weapons. Some of the Banelord weapons are
> >superior to the standard issue equivalents (doomfist), but
> >the other weapons are inferior (tail gun, the arm cannon).
> >So it all evens out.
>
> -----> Chaos lacks barrage weapons.

        Right. Which is why the Banelord isn't any help,
since it can't fire indirect. Might as well use cannons
of khorne - longer ranged and also can't fire indirect.
Sure they scatter a lot, but they're cheaper and don't
give up ridiculous VPs.

> >> for the same price
> >
> > 900 points vs. 500. Hmmmm...
>
> ----> Not everyone takes a titan battlegroup.

        Anyone who doesn't (assuming they have the models)
is being foolish. The price break (especially on Warlords)
is amazing. Why take one Reaver for 500 points when you
can get 3 for twice that? Why bring a Warlord along for
900 points when you have 3 for 1500?!?

> Smaller fights,

        Warhounds and reaver battlegroups. Or no titans
at all. I've never seen single titans fielded since TL
was released, and I've been fighting battles from 1500 to
8000 points.

> lack of flexibility (those grouped titans have the standard
> 25cm command radius, so you have 3 titans within a
> small area).

        Which isn't a big deal considering how cheap the
titans are.

> So far, all titans for Chaos suck, most daemon engines suck,
> what DID you use...?(OK plague tower - what else?)
> What units are not crap?

        Most lesser daemons (flamers are bad). Marines and
marine stuff. Lord of Change, Magnus, Mort, LoB. Generally
I would almost always take 1 GD per 1000 points, which
didn't leave much room for anything big. So I would take
lots of daemons, warbands, and any neccessary marine
equipment (legions, transports, bikes, generally some shooty
stuff). Lots of Tzeentch & Nurgle, with some Khorne thrown
in (LoB, Bloodletters, & Flesh Hounds).

> >> 5) What's up with those greater demons? Seem kinda
> >> weak to me "stubborn" for a KOS? "save" is OK,
> >> and psyker is OK, but couldn't they do better than that?
> >
> > GDs have suffered a huge downgrade in power. But
> >then, they are no longer the center of the army. The first
> >few times I played I got a shock when my GDs got picked off
> >by AT shots. "Oh yeah? Well, I'll just sacrifice a cha-
> >oh." And they are much cheaper now as well, so it's not
> >like they're overpriced or anything. It's just that, like
> >a lot of units, their relative power level has been
> >radically changed.
>
> ----> Now they're all basically like the B-thirster was. No real
> ranged ability, just nasty in HTH. "Psyker". wow. I think I want
> my Bolt of Change back...

        Also remember that you need psykers to use the
'psychic blast' fate cards. One auto-hit on any unit at
any time within 30cm of a psyker. Not as much fun as
the Bolt (man, I loved that template), but it's something.

> >> I almost think treating them as some kind of War engine
> >> would be better...
> >
> > That's a little TOO much. WEs are huge machines
> >that aren't very maneuverable. Anything that was a Knight
> >in SM/TL (GDs, hive tyrants, slaanesh engines) didn't make
> >the WE cut.
>
> I guess the Nid players would be a little ticked...
> but GD's were one of the few units that could take
> multiple hits in SM/TL. Knights were still just 1 hit- 1 dead.

        Only because of the chaos cards. The Knights'
shield meant that they, too could take more fire than
usual.

> I know some of the nid stuff was similar but I haven't dealt with
> them too much. I think a 4 - hit war engine would be appropriate
> with a "pick-a-power" list for each GD type. I don't think anyone
> other than some hard-core chaos players would even consider it,
> but I think it could be done in a reasonable fashion. Imagine the
> crit table
> "twisted ankle - movement halved"
> etc.

        Heh... Still, GDs are not WEs... they weren't
even close to being to scale in SM/TL either (I guess
they're going to fix that now like they did with the
hive tyrant), and really had no right being classed
as knights (not that they were underpriced or anything,
but just from the perspective of what their 'real'
size is).

Scott
shupes_at_...
Received on Mon Jul 28 1997 - 23:50:00 UTC