RE: [Epic] -Chaos- Tactic Critique

From: Miller, Chris <CMiller_at_...>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:54:02 -0500

>>
>> ----He worked OK against those armies who had charge units as well -
>> the Orky cult of speed, , some bike units, etc. Other than this, it
>> was use the cards to keep him alive til he can do something...
>
> Never had the pleasure of facing orks, unfortunately
>(really big detachments with poor morale! yeah!)

----> Orks against Chaos can be hilarious - all those goofy cards
and special rules..."Ok, the beam of power bounces off the
deflektor shield and nails this slasher gargant, which explodes, which
will kill my Great Unclean One, so I'll draw on the warp and hold
together..."
"Sure, daemons are better than gretchen in CC, but DO THEY
HAVE AN UNLIMITED RANGE TELEPORT !?" followed by
sound of shokk attack guns...lots of reasonable or better
CAF's on both sides, Orks usually cannot resist the temptation
to take a heavily reinforced Kult of Speed, even against Chaos,
so you get a bunch(usually 30+) of speed 30-35 vehicles charging
towards objectives the first turn. Deathrollers vs. Regenerating
creatures alone can make an interesting vignette...Bonebreakas
roll over bloodletters and engage someone else, letters get up and
' continue on their way or charge 'em in the back...
        If the Ork Player has Gargants (IF? what am I saying...) the
morale really doesn't come into play much , as if they can see a gargant
then they auto-pass all morale checks. If you can detonate that puppy,
though...
        Honestly, a lot of Chaos's range issues go away real quick
against orks - they have the afore-mentioned KOS, plus all those
cheap battlewagons. It's kinda like Nids w/o all the unpleasant
psychic cards - though Weirdboy towers will pick off demons
like no other single unit in the game. They usually only have a few
of those.
>
>> > There is - the Banelord sucks (simple, and to the
>> >point).
>> >
>> > 900 points for a short-ranged titan that can't use
>> >FF orders.
>>
>> -----> Taken. It's main weapons are 75 cm and 50cm though -
>> about like the rest of chaos...
>
> Exactly. So why pay so much when you can get
>the same elsewhere in the army, for less points?
-----> Still say it's better protected than most Chaos units.
I've seen 'em die the first turn (from some other Titan), I've seen
'em survive the whole game(good void shield repair rolls help).
Normally takes a minimum of 7 hits to hurt one, and other than
GD's, nothing else can soak up that much.
>
>> >Advance orders suck, and it's not fast enough to really catch
>> >anything in CC. And the amazingly high price tag means that
>> >in a normal battle, you can't take any other titans to give
>> >some much needed fire support.
>>
>> ----> Normal for us was 5-6000 pts. Room for a couple in there.
>
> Geez. You must normally take the minimum in GDs
>if you have a couple of titans in 5-6000 point games and
>one of those titans is the banelord.
----> Banelord, Reaver,some warhounds. less than 2000 pts on titans is
useful in many cases, and leaves 3- 4000 pts of demons. If we want
to deliberately add more titans, we'll ramp up to 8-10,000 and go nuts.
(and if you're really interested, some people let Chaos take
titan groups -we usually don't, but it's not that uncommon)
>
>> Speedwise it's not better or worse than other Warlords, and
>> honestly I usually don't have a problem with the enemy moving towards
>> me.
>
> It's fairly easy to stay away from the Banelord
>& just shoot it until it dies and coughs up 9 VPs,
>considering it's speed and range. I've certainly seen
>it happen often enough.
----> With Eldar, sure, but with Orks - "Ey, boyz, letz Warboss
Boogar sez let's go stomp dat sticky-lookin wun over dere..."
A sporting Ork player will come after YOU.
With imperials, I find that the infantry will move up to objectives
and ditch their transports, and once that happens, they don't move
too much. And they're just as likely to send a titan after it, too.
Squats have all those bikers and Super-heavies - one of them
will move towards you. Haven't played Tyranids too much, so I
don't really have any insight. I just don't see as many of the range
problems as you do. Maybe it's the way you and I play, maybe it's
how our opponents play...I usually see people dispatching fast
units to seize objectives and take easy shots while chaos is trying
 to close to HTH. A couple of nasty shooters helps thin the enemy
before the assault troops get to them. They usually charge forward
30 to 50 cm's, and I'm starting as far up as possible, moving 15 to 30
(adv or chg), and that's usually enough to get your 75cm's into range
if nothing else. A Banelord can pump a half or full rack of missiles
into
someone at that point, or charge and do more on Turn 2.
>
>> > Chaos already has bunches of nasty short-ranged
>> >weapons and machines that are good in CC. It doesn't need
>> >to pay 900 points for a fragile titan that already covers
>> >those bases.
>>
>> ----> For chaos it has "normal" range and the void shields will
>> suck up 6 hits in one turn -better than chaos cards. Should survive
>> long enough to get somewhere.
>
> I guess it depends what you're facing. As I've
>said before, when I started playing I was primarily facing
>off against eldar. I've never seen the Banelord survive
>long enough to get *anywhere*.
----> that's because he senses the distinct lack of Khorne units in
your army, and lacks motivation at that point... : )
>> >> (My view - more stuff than a regular warlord
>> >
>> > How so? It's got 5 weapons but any warlord titan
>> >can have 5 weapons. Some of the Banelord weapons are
>> >superior to the standard issue equivalents (doomfist), but
>> >the other weapons are inferior (tail gun, the arm cannon).
>> >So it all evens out.
>>
>> -----> Chaos lacks barrage weapons.
>
> Right. Which is why the Banelord isn't any help,
>since it can't fire indirect. Might as well use cannons
>of khorne - longer ranged and also can't fire indirect.
>Sure they scatter a lot, but they're cheaper and don't
>give up ridiculous VPs.

-----> Never firing indirect means they don't scatter. 6 barrage
missiles with the flexibility of all-at-once or staggered is a handy
ability. How many turns do your games typically last? How many
shots is any particular weapons battery going to get off, at one per
turn? I'm not saying the cannons aren't good- I use 2 batteries
in pretty much every game-but I dont see that one replaces
the other.
>> >> for the same price
>> >
>> > 900 points vs. 500. Hmmmm...
>>
>> ----> Not everyone takes a titan battlegroup.
>
> Anyone who doesn't (assuming they have the models)
>is being foolish. The price break (especially on Warlords)
>is amazing. Why take one Reaver for 500 points when you
>can get 3 for twice that? Why bring a Warlord along for
>900 points when you have 3 for 1500?!?
>
>> Smaller fights,
>
> Warhounds and reaver battlegroups. Or no titans
>at all. I've never seen single titans fielded since TL
>was released, and I've been fighting battles from 1500 to
>8000 points.
----> As far as I know, Chaos buys warhounds the same way everyone else
does - in pairs. Reaver groups are nice for 1000 pts, but not everyone
fields 3 reavers. From what you say , it sounds like you don't field
titans for Chaos. Cool for you, but I like to, and I haven't suffered
huge
losses because of it. When I lose with Chaos, the vast majority of the
time it's been to Eldar, and that's more because Eldar just kick ass
against
Chaos more than the presence/absence of titans. In fact, if the Eldar
titans are present, the Banelord and some Khorne cannons usually blow
them away with relative ease precisely because of the barrage weapons.
We may tend to field more titans in out games than your group - I don't
know,
but I like the game better with them. My ork force? Start with 3 Megas
and
a gargant mob! Imperials? Well, the imperator has a bodyguard reaver and
a
 bodyguard warlord which I field as singles. I also have 3 Warlord
groups, and
a reaver group but that's not _always_ what I field.
>
>> lack of flexibility (those grouped titans have the standard
>> 25cm command radius, so you have 3 titans within a
>> small area).
>
> Which isn't a big deal considering how cheap the
>titans are.
>
>> So far, all titans for Chaos suck, most daemon engines suck,
>> what DID you use...?(OK plague tower - what else?)
>> What units are not crap?
>
> Most lesser daemons (flamers are bad). Marines and
>marine stuff. Lord of Change, Magnus, Mort, LoB. Generally
>I would almost always take 1 GD per 1000 points, which
>didn't leave much room for anything big. So I would take
>lots of daemons, warbands, and any neccessary marine
>equipment (legions, transports, bikes, generally some shooty
>stuff). Lots of Tzeentch & Nurgle, with some Khorne thrown
>in (LoB, Bloodletters, & Flesh Hounds).

----> At least we both like the LOB and the LOC : )
(I don't much like anything else Tzeentch has, but that
one is worth filling out the list- usually disc riders and something
else...)

That said, let me open this up:
Is a LOB as good as a reaver? Same points (for 1). Reaver
has more weapons & options and a better CAF. LOB gets 3
cards which can save if his armor is penetrated. Reaver gets
4 shields which save before armor is hit, and can be regenerated
>on a 5-6 at the end of every turn. Movement is the same.
        If a LOB dies, his followers are vulnerable to morale checks.
If the Reaver dies it just blows up.

So how is the LOB better?
>>
>> ----> Now they're all basically like the B-thirster was. No real
>> ranged ability, just nasty in HTH. "Psyker". wow. I think I want
>> my Bolt of Change back...
>
> Also remember that you need psykers to use the
>'psychic blast' fate cards. One auto-hit on any unit at
>any time within 30cm of a psyker. Not as much fun as
>the Bolt (man, I loved that template), but it's something.

----> It's kinda close to what a KOS could do (I guess) but it
still feels clammy for a LOC. The GUO's 2 FP is pretty weak
too IMO.
>
>> >> I almost think treating them as some kind of War engine
>> >> would be better...
>> >
>> > That's a little TOO much. WEs are huge machines
>> >that aren't very maneuverable. Anything that was a Knight
>> >in SM/TL (GDs, hive tyrants, slaanesh engines) didn't make
>> >the WE cut.
>>
>> I guess the Nid players would be a little ticked...
>> but GD's were one of the few units that could take
>> multiple hits in SM/TL. Knights were still just 1 hit- 1 dead.
>
> Only because of the chaos cards. The Knights'
>shield meant that they, too could take more fire than
>usual.
>
>> I know some of the nid stuff was similar but I haven't dealt with
>> them too much. I think a 4 - hit war engine would be appropriate
>> with a "pick-a-power" list for each GD type. I don't think anyone
>> other than some hard-core chaos players would even consider it,
>> but I think it could be done in a reasonable fashion. Imagine the
>> crit table
>> "twisted ankle - movement halved"
>> etc.
>
> Heh... Still, GDs are not WEs... they weren't
>even close to being to scale in SM/TL either (I guess
>they're going to fix that now like they did with the
>hive tyrant), and really had no right being classed
>as knights (not that they were underpriced or anything,
>but just from the perspective of what their 'real'
>size is).
>
>Scott
>shupes_at_...

-----> They're redoing the GD minis for 40K & Fantasy (40$ for
a GUO ?!) so I imagine we'll get the new ones in E40K when the
time comes. As someone else mentioned, maybe we'll get some
legion-specific and primarch specific rules, but from the 40K
chaos book, we already have the marines - berserkers, noise marines,
and thousand sons. The only thing missing are plague marines,
and all they got for 40K was a +1 toughness and a nasty knife.
 "Assault" anyone?

Chris Miller
Received on Tue Jul 29 1997 - 15:54:02 UTC