RE: [NetEpic ML] [v5.0]Iron Hands Counterproposal

From: <jyrki.saari_at_...>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:52:18 +0300

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jarreas Underwood [mailto:jarreas_at_mindspring.com]
> Sent: 13. June 2002 16:56
> To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [NetEpic ML] [v5.0]Iron Hands Counterproposal
>
>
> >> Reputation: Space Marines have a tremendous rep already.
> >
> >There are space marines (Ultramarines) and then there are
> space marines
> (Flesh Tearers)...
> >
> From the viewpoint of a IG trooper, it's a choice between the
> flames being
> a million degrees or a billion - either way you're *gonna* get burned.
>
>
> >Then why do they care about SW blood claws?
> >
> I've pictured these guys as howling fanatics in addition to
> being armored
> dudes bearing down on you with all weapons blazing. I've
> never agreed with
> the Fear ability, but neither have I argued against it.
>

There are different kinds of fanatics. I'd not like to face a legion of terminators (T-800s, not marine terminators) advancing like a legion of undead.

I could as well argue why a fanatical supporter of Blood God would have to make morale tests _at all_ since all he's interested in is bloodshed and even if he dies he knows his skull shall be added to the pile supporting Khorne's throne.

Note that the morale check rule comes into effect only after the unit has reached break point. Not when Iron Hands charge (like the blood claw rule).


>
> >> Disadvantages: The tech-chaplain can't affect allies? Wah.
> >
> >Inquisitors & co. can't affect you. Your commanders can't
> affect other
> Imperial troops.
> >
> Inquisitors should affect *everyone* - they're outside the
> Adeptus Terra
> and answerable only to the Emperor. Diss one and you'll get
> yourself dead.

Yes, the Iron Hands allow (reluctantly) them to conduct their investigation (meddling) but they're not impressed by the Inquisitors in any way.

> And by my Armies & Allies proposal, if you're playing a
> Unique Army you're
> putting 75% of your points into it anyway - not a lot else for your
> commanders to affect.
>

True. It could be simply stated that Iron Hands may not ally.

>
> >You can't have: tactical, assault, devastator, veteran, terminator or
> scout companies. Or doesn't this rank as a disadvantage?
> >
> My proposal was replacing only the four Battle Companies with Seige
> Companies - you could still get the others, and they'd be
> normal (cost,
> VPs, etc).
>

Yes but we were talking about _my_ proposal where you listed as the only disadvantage the inability of IH HQ units to affect other Imperial troops and discarded entirely the inability to get normal marine infantry companies.

> Your way - replacing *all* companies with tactical ones,

Battle companies.

> is
> not that bad,
> as marines don't have any inter-detachment coherency issues
> to worry about.
> If you buy three devastator detachments they're exactly the same as a
> company - all you lose is the HQ.

Threee detachments give out victory points faster, since each detachment breaks separately. Plus 3 tactical detachments, for example, give you 9 victory points while a tactical company gives 8. Also, the command unit does give a morale bonus to nearby troops.

> They're still free to
> maneuver any way
> they like.
>

See above.

>
> >A matter of preference, of course. Personally I like a bit different
> looking clan-chapter.
> >
> How about both? A Clan-structured, siege-oriented Chapter?
>

Sounds good.

>
> >> 2) The Vets & Terminators are mostly machines, so they
> have to follow
> >> written orders like robots.
> >
> >Note: their brains aren't affected; compare to dreadnoughts
> which are even
> more machines.
> >
> >5+ regeneration and increased armor? Wow.
> >
> That's why I hit 'em with the robot program restrictions. If
> you change 'em
> to the point of affecting their abilities on the Epic
> battlefield scale,
> you're gonna have a corresponding loss in another area - I
> chose free will.
>

I'd give the vetarans a +1 to their save and no regeneration. If they were using the robot rules then, as said above, dreadnoughts should use them also. The Iron Hands do _not_ replace the brain with bioplastics.

>
> >> 3) your opponent gets 50% more Victory Points from
> breaking your Seige,
> >> Veteran and Terminator Companies. Normal points for
> everything else.
> >> 4) No allies.
> >
> >4) is OK. I could live with 3.
> >
> Number 3 is where I get the 18 VP's from: 1200 points = 12
> VP, increase by
> 50% and you get 18. I don't agree with increased Break point
> though - the
> increased VPs counterbalances the increased size *and* the
> ability to buy
> artillery Support Cards.

I don't agree. You already pay for the extra troops in the point cost; there's no need for additional penalties. A normal battle company costs 850 points. A tactical stand costs 33 points [(Detachment cost - the cost of rhinos) / 6]. An assault stands costs the same. A devastator stand costs 50 points. 3 Rhinos cost 50. So the cost increase would be 33 * 4 + 50 * 2 + 50 = 282 rounded up to 300. So the cost would be 1150 and the VPs 12.

As for the artillery; the advantage should be paid for in points (+50 or even 100 to the IG cost) and availablity (Special cards). Remember that a marine player can always take titans for artillery support. They do cost more, of course, but are also a lot more durable.

> Your troops are harder to replace,
> thus worth more
> to the enemy for killing - that doesn't imply fearlessness in
> the face of
> casualties.
>

Are they any harder to replace than standard marines? IMO a bionic body is _much_ more easy to repair than a normal flesh and blood marine, especially with the technical expertise of the Iron Hands.

And the answer to your next question: other marines do not use the mechanization because to most people in the Imperium technology is bordering on abhorrent witchcraft. Iron Hands are a very rare exception (outside the Adeptus Mechanicus, of course).

> -Yar
>


Jyrki Saari

-There is no such thing as free lunch because eating takes time and time is money.
Received on Fri Jun 14 2002 - 07:52:18 UTC