Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff

From: Luca Lettieri <magnus_at_...>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:52:22 -0000

Hehe, things begin to get interesting...
 
> I dont see how it can be well known that it is a hyperbole curve it
we
> cannot predict the future and know if socially and economically we
CAN
> progress. There have been brilliant mind throughout history, but
ifthe
> general climate is one of suppression and superstition then ignoring
> geniuses and technological breakthrough is quite common. Copernicus
laid
> down much of the theories that later Galileo would use, but thers 2
> centuries in between and still it was suppressed until the Age of
reason
> (18th century) thats about 400 years.

But the knowledge was still there all the time. The ignorant masses
would not have known, but state-of-the-art researchers surely would
(and did).

Also we assume that a higher
> technological base guarnatees quicker research-False! Look at the
present
> situtation. I dont think anyone doubts that we have the technology
now to
> explore our solar system with manned missions, heck there are
working ideas
> and engineering sketches of nuclear powered space craft much
quicker
than
> those used today. But why haven't we done so? There is no
economical
or
> pressure to do so. Invention doesn't just happen, there must be a
driving
> force behind it.

Hundreds of war fronts with enemies looking for total genocide seem a
pretty powerful incentive to me...

> War has been and is a powerful incentive no doubt there, but you
miss one
> crucial aspect of development. The will and organization to do so.
The
> Imperium has neither. The fluff states that technology is viewed in
> superstitious manner. Also the fluff states that information is NOT
shared
> that is the cornerstone of Imperial policy with just about
everything. You
> cannot sustain any worthwhile research effort without coordination
and
> sharing of information between branches. Case in point WWII and the
germans.
> Each project group was not only independent of each other but
competed
> against each other for resouces. End result-redudant research and
time goals
> were not met and they failed.

The germans developed V1 and V2s. Usa would hardly have won the Space
race without Werner von Braun.
Besides:

A) if there's only ONE faction with all the knowledge, you don't need
efficient sharing techniques - it's already centralized
B) I'd assume if someone comes up with a spiffy new toy to blast
greater demons into smithereens no one in the empire would complain.
Or to put it into different terms: the empire most definitely has the
will to develop new weapons. It needs them for survival. I don't know
a more powerful motivator. It may lack efficient organization, but
this could only slow new developments, not stop them dead in their
tracks for 10000 years.


Imagine adding religious persecution
and
> suppression of all knowledge out side one organization (adeptus
mechanicus)
> how easy would it be to develop something new? Not very easy.

For someone outside the AM, maybe. But the AM *IS* part of the
Empire,
and it still is as frozen as anyone else.
And try to apply all of this to the Eldar....

Also
remember
> the level of technological discovery you expect the Imperium to
develop with
> what they already have. Its easy to invent a automobile for
example,
then
> use that technology to power other similar inventions that derive
from it
> because the breach is small. But look at Imperial technology, FTL
travel,
> what can beat that? There might be something, but the chasm between
the two
> is great.

Maybe, but rediscovery of something you already have shouldn't be all
that difficult, and yet, it doesn' t happen. Come on, now, how
difficult can it be to copy something you have (and you're able to
mantain due to efficient maintenance equipment)? Besides, I'm not
advocating massive advancements. But NOTHING AT ALL? Not even some
longer-range weapons? Better flyers? Faster spaceships?

> Thats were you err, the Imperium by its fluff does NOT create an
enviorment
> were the most competent people are in charge or work towards a
common goal.

Sorry but I disagree here (as I'm agreeing on the rest ... :-) ). The
Astronomicon is explicitly noted has being composed of only the
psykers able to pass hard tests. The REALLY good ones end up into the
Grey Knights.
The same goes for Space Marines. The IG are the cream of the crop of
the PDF groups. Why should the AM be any different?? And they DO work
toward a common goal. Exterminating all enemy sentient lifeforms.
It's
a classic case of "enemy of my enemy".

> The adeptus has SOLE control of this no one else. As a matter of
fact they
> suppress and discourage outside developments as unpure, thats why
they have
> not capitalized on squat innovations! Also the adeptus doe NOT
control
> resouces, yet another problem. The organization of the Imperium is
such that
> no one organization has control of all that is needed for this kind
of
> development, its great for maintaining order, but murder for
research.

As soon as we discover fusion reactors, all we'll need is hydrogen.
You can sinthetize any other element, provided you have enough energy.
Does AM scientists live in an hydrogen-deprived environment? Maybe,
but I still think it's extremely hard to curtain someone more
advanced
than you. Why they don't just develop mind-controlling helmets and
assume power anyway? Sorry but you're implying the AM is trying to
harass HIMSELF. I just don't see how this can happen for any length
of
time.

> Thats the second point the Imperium, by fluff is NOT a
technologically
> advanced civilzation. Cutting edge technology is NOT available to
the masses
> and not even most planets. There are thousands if not millions of
planets
> that are not above feudal economy and tech. Remember teh worlds
most
marines
> come from are savage low technology planets.

Sure, but again: there SHOULD be an elite which is constantly
advancing. Unless the whole of the Imperium is ruled by a bunch of
suicidal maniacs. No: unless the Imperium HAS BEEN RULED FOR 10000
YEARS by a bunch of suicidal maniacs.

> 3.One association controls all "knowledge" and actively crushes
competition
> 4.Another branch (Inquisition) actively persecutes and destroys
anything new
> because its tainted
> 5.Lack of any coordinated research effort that draws upon all
humanities
> resouces
> 6.No system of stimulating research or harvesting new planet (you
become a
> tech priest more on piety and purity than knowledge)

Again: all this can only slow development, not stop it. And again, I
don't think the Inquisition would complain at all about the new
"greater demon demulecolarizator" the AM has just come up with. Hell,
Inquisitors are noted for having access to cutting edge technology
weapons!!!

Besides, if the Imperium is so obscenely inefficient as to having
effectively stopped all progress for 10000 years (an absolutely
amazing feat, you must admit...), there's just NO WAY it could
efficiently control (and keep subjugated) the greater part of a
galaxy.

Sorry but I still think it's totally ludicrous. If you want to read
about a decaying empire, read Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. Now
THAT is sci-fi.
 
> The Imperium encompasses the absolute worst features of historical
> governments into one. It is a police state with religious overtones
where
> citizens, even in hive cities are ignorant of true high tech. Such
a
society
> is at a technological standstill, at a level even below the pace of
> innovations in antiquity.
>
> Having the tools for innovations is not enough if there is no
desire.

Either the Imperium is totally inefficient, and then it should have
crumbled by its own weight thousands of years ago; or is amazingly
ruthless and efficient, and in this case, while most of its citizens
would not have great living standards, its ruling elite would
certainly have, and would actively push for any means to keep the
status quo. Namely, better weapons with which to crush internal
rebellions and external treaths. I stand my case: such a critical
situation cannot last for such a long period. Especially considering
the huge external and internal pressures the Imperium has to face.
Petty branch rivalries cannot last for 10000 years. NOTHING can last
10000 years unchanged, much less a crumbling, inefficient,
galaxy-wide
organization.


Luca Lettieri
Received on Fri May 26 2000 - 15:52:22 UTC