Re: [NetEpic ML] Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff

From: Peter Ramos <pramos2_at_...>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:22:45 -0500

Hi!

..and the rings..round TWO!

>But the knowledge was still there all the time. The ignorant masses
>would not have known, but state-of-the-art researchers surely would
>(and did).

Again the same mistake, there is no such thing as researchers in the
Imperium the background clearly cites multiple time that the AM are teh
"custodians" or "keepers" of knowledge, the ones who make sure the knowledge
is pure. In no text does it ever mention the AM being innovative or on the
cutting edge. As a matter of fact the only things it has done is re-dicover
technology to emulate it, not improve it.


>Hundreds of war fronts with enemies looking for total genocide seem a
>pretty powerful incentive to me...

But its really not a UNITED war. There has been no documented declaration of
such, everything in the Imperium is reaction NOT action. i get attacked so I
defend. The only instance of large scale imperial mobilization against an
outside threat and that still was a local affair was the tyranid attack on
Ultramar. Humanity has NOT been pressed to wall by anyone so there is no
motivation to break custom and innovate. Hundreds of fronts may seem to be a
lot but on a galactic scale is it? NO. those border wars have the same taste
as current affairs today. There are many "wars" all over the globe right
now, but they are very local or regional affairs so nobody cares (except if
you live there of course). Thus there is no presure on humanity today for
rapid and obligatory innovation. Today most innovation is derived by
commercial gain (which is also compelling), but the Imperium has none of
these. What is the battle on the fringe of the eye of terror to those away
from that sector? Not much. You state that this state should compel them to
create, but in an Empire of millions of worlds these border conflicts are
nothing, thus they remain stagnant.
>
>The germans developed V1 and V2s. Usa would hardly have won the Space
>race without Werner von Braun.

The point is how much SOONER would they had done it if they had organized
tehmselves efficiently. Soon enough to have all of us talking german I'd
wager.

>Besides:
>
>A) if there's only ONE faction with all the knowledge, you don't need
>efficient sharing techniques - it's already centralized

Oh Luca! Now this downright wrong. Having been in the medical field for some
time, I have seen how research works in the confines of ONE department, with
a single centralized authority and guess what? It does hurt teh overall
effort. You have researchers with different goals competing for research
dollars and withholding information to make it more difficult for collegues
to do so. And thats ONE department!

Coordination IS the cornerstone of research. The first thing any researcher
worth his salt does is tap into the accumulated SHARED knowledge, without
this we are reinventing the wheel time and time again, like the Imperium.

>B) I'd assume if someone comes up with a spiffy new toy to blast
>greater demons into smithereens no one in the empire would complain.
>Or to put it into different terms: the empire most definitely has the
>will to develop new weapons. It needs them for survival. I don't know
>a more powerful motivator. It may lack efficient organization, but
>this could only slow new developments, not stop them dead in their
>tracks for 10000 years.

Wrong again, according to the mentality the first question would be "how do
you know it works against demon", "have you tested it versus demons" and if
you have there are certain Inquisitorial agencies wish to talk to you and
then you dead or mind scrubed.

All background supports this approach, look at those little sayings in the
old books " a thinking mind is one prone to heresy" you actually think if
one of these guys thought of something innovative he'd talk about it? He
knows what would happen and it isn't a pat on the back for a job well done.
>For someone outside the AM, maybe. But the AM *IS* part of the
>Empire,
>and it still is as frozen as anyone else.
>And try to apply all of this to the Eldar....

I would apply this to the eldar, because teh background, old or new has
never stated they were stagnant, for al lwe know they have made new things,
GW is just lazy and hasn't come around to writing about it. Note however
they HAVE mentioned squats are making big headway in tech (they mention
something about a stable warp-plasma generator), but then again the Imperium
pretty much ignores that source as all others.


>Maybe, but rediscovery of something you already have shouldn't be all
>that difficult, and yet, it doesn' t happen. Come on, now, how
>difficult can it be to copy something you have (and you're able to
>mantain due to efficient maintenance equipment)? Besides, I'm not
>advocating massive advancements. But NOTHING AT ALL? Not even some
>longer-range weapons? Better flyers? Faster spaceships?

Thats the point, HOW do you improve what they got, can it? A longer range
weapon implies better power source, what better power source? thats
innovation no duplication. Better flyers? lighter materials, better power
source again not copying, its innovation. They have relearned what they have
lost and how to repair it somewhat, but building a better mouse traps takes
you back to the basic tennants of research and they dont have the attitude
or teh coordination to do it as tehy are now.


>Sorry but I disagree here (as I'm agreeing on the rest ... :-) ). The
>Astronomicon is explicitly noted has being composed of only the
>psykers able to pass hard tests. The REALLY good ones end up into the
>Grey Knights.

Bad example, a psyker is an inate ability you are either strong or you are
not. To be an inventor you need more than "inbuilt ability" and the Imperium
does not foster any program that "collects" geniuses.

>The same goes for Space Marines. The IG are the cream of the crop of
>the PDF groups. Why should the AM be any different?? And they DO work
>toward a common goal. Exterminating all enemy sentient lifeforms.
>It's
>a classic case of "enemy of my enemy".

Nope. What are teh AM a cream to? There is no more but them and also the
background explicitly states that the mission of the AM is to "keep" and
maintain the purity of knowledge. They have no goal beyond preserving it,
there is no mention of working to progress it.


>As soon as we discover fusion reactors, all we'll need is hydrogen.
>You can sinthetize any other element, provided you have enough energy.
>Does AM scientists live in an hydrogen-deprived environment? Maybe,
>but I still think it's extremely hard to curtain someone more
>advanced
>than you. Why they don't just develop mind-controlling helmets and
>assume power anyway? Sorry but you're implying the AM is trying to
>harass HIMSELF. I just don't see how this can happen for any length
>of
>time.

Quite easy and it has happened in many of our institutions during history.
The AM is an institution of power, thus those in control of it exert power.
Rule number one of those in power? Maintain power. Power is maintained by
force of will, force and playing off opposition groups against each other.
In some of the GW novels the AM is portrayed as a bunch of priests that
foucs on some pet-project and do anything to further it, even at the expense
of other "collegues". This is due to the fact that he that brings in more
old knowledge (note the emphasis on old not new) gains influence and power.
When power is an issue anything goes. The Roman empire lasted in this frame
of mind 500 after the first Emperor and thats a small piece of land on one
planet, multiply the same ploblems on a galactic scale and it can easily go
on a long time, as long as teh institution itself exists. The AM like all
institutions in the Imperium seek to perpetuate themselves at any cost.


>Sure, but again: there SHOULD be an elite which is constantly
>advancing. Unless the whole of the Imperium is ruled by a bunch of
>suicidal maniacs. No: unless the Imperium HAS BEEN RULED FOR 10000
>YEARS by a bunch of suicidal maniacs.

The elite are self-involved and decadent as long as they have it good where
is the motivation to research. Innovation during history has never come from
the establishment or the so called elite it arises from lower down since
they have the most to gain. In essence teh Imperium IS rules by maniacs with
no goal further than the status quo


>Again: all this can only slow development, not stop it. And again, I
>don't think the Inquisition would complain at all about the new
>"greater demon demulecolarizator" the AM has just come up with. Hell,
>Inquisitors are noted for having access to cutting edge technology
>weapons!!!

The question is how slow is slow, gauging the technology leaps in this case
the progess can be pretty much no progress.


Well thats it for now, I'll see you later.

Peter
Received on Fri May 26 2000 - 18:22:45 UTC