Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff

From: Luca Lettieri <magnus_at_...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:27:22 -0000

> Hi!
>
> ..and the rings..round TWO!

I just LOVE interesting discussions :-)
 
> Again the same mistake, there is no such thing as researchers in the
> Imperium the background clearly cites multiple time that the AM are
teh
> "custodians" or "keepers" of knowledge, the ones who make sure the
knowledge
> is pure. In no text does it ever mention the AM being innovative or
on the
> cutting edge. As a matter of fact the only things it has done is
re-dicover
> technology to emulate it, not improve it.

This is one of the things I find completely unlogical. Citing the
background which I'm trying to pound into the dirt as proof of what
it's believable is not going to do you any good, Peter :-)

Seriously, given the situation, the Imperium as a whole and the AM in
particular would greatly benefit from some serious research. I can
understand some short-sightdneness (sp??) on the part of the WHOLE
ruling elite, but said elite being short-sighted for 10000 years and
STILL being the ruling elite???

This is my main gripe and the whole point of the discussion,
actually; the Imperium as described is completely a-historical.
Nothing really happens in 10000 years (except a bunch of
wars/rebellions/whatever GW needs to launch its latest promotional
campaign) and, no matter how you look at things, this is just out of
the question. No human society can go on unchanged for 10000 years.
No real human society has ever been completely still; slow maybe, but
even in the most stagnant of societies, ideas circulate, social
pressures build up, and sooner or later they're going to explode....

> But its really not a UNITED war. There has been no documented
declaration of
> such, everything in the Imperium is reaction NOT action. i get
attacked so I
> defend. The only instance of large scale imperial mobilization
against an
> outside threat and that still was a local affair was the tyranid
attack on
> Ultramar. Humanity has NOT been pressed to wall by anyone so there
is no
> motivation to break custom and innovate. Hundreds of fronts may
seem
to be a
> lot but on a galactic scale is it? NO. those border wars have the
same taste
> as current affairs today. There are many "wars" all over the globe
right
> now, but they are very local or regional affairs so nobody cares
(except if
> you live there of course). Thus there is no presure on humanity
today for
> rapid and obligatory innovation. Today most innovation is derived by
> commercial gain (which is also compelling), but the Imperium has
none of
> these. What is the battle on the fringe of the eye of terror to
those away
> from that sector? Not much. You state that this state should compel
them to
> create, but in an Empire of millions of worlds these border
conflicts are
> nothing, thus they remain stagnant.

[Little nitpick: in the original background commerce WAS a factor:
the original WH40K is called *ROGUE TRADER* for a reason; as a matter
of fact, the original Imperium was much more dynamic, a society on
the brink of massive changes which would have either brought it to
total collapse or to a new flourishing. Then the completely
believable situation was "backtracked-extended" for 10000 years and
it suddendly became illogical].

The situation you depict is pretty believable, but in such a state of
affairs there's NO WAY the Imperium would be able to exert the sort
of UTTER, COMPLETE, FLAWLESS control which would be needed to
completely halt the progress of a whole galaxy for 10000 years. In
such a situation, it's more than likely than the most geographically
distant galaxy regions would have seceded from the Imperium, built
their own fleets, and went on evolving their own civilizations which,
in 10000 years, would have became so ludicrously advanced as to be
able to re-unify the galaxy under their own, new empire.
Of course things would not have gone this smooth, but really... all
it takes is a few planets beginning to pay lip service to the central
bureacreacy and then going their own way. If the Imperium hardly
takes notice of full-scale border wars, who is going to care of exact
political details of small, insignificant planet XXX at the other
side of the galaxy??

> The point is how much SOONER would they had done it if they had
organized
> tehmselves efficiently. Soon enough to have all of us talking
german
I'd
> wager.

Yep, lack of organization hampered them. It didn't stop them. The
problem is the magnitude of disorganization you need to COMPLETELY
FREEZE EVERYTHING FOR 10000 YEARS IN A WHOLE GALAXY. I'd rather say
you need a perfect organization and an iron will to achieve this kind
of results. I.e., you'd actually need a ruling elite which WANTS
progress to be stopped, and has the means to enforce this on a
galaxy-wide level. Except that, by stopping all progress (thus
including military progress), said elite is undermining its own
control capabilities and thus the means of keeping progress stopped.
 
> Oh Luca! Now this downright wrong. Having been in the medical field
for some
> time, I have seen how research works in the confines of ONE
department, with
> a single centralized authority and guess what? It does hurt teh
overall
> effort.

Again: hurting is one thing; killing is another. Killing for 10000
years is yet another.
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken disk, but this is the
whole point.

> Wrong again, according to the mentality the first question would be
"how do
> you know it works against demon", "have you tested it versus
demons"
and if
> you have there are certain Inquisitorial agencies wish to talk to
you and
> then you dead or mind scrubed.
 
> All background supports this approach, look at those little sayings
in the
> old books " a thinking mind is one prone to heresy" you actually
think if
> one of these guys thought of something innovative he'd talk about
it? He
> knows what would happen and it isn't a pat on the back for a job
well done.

I'd imagine sooner or later one of these guys would wander off, would
succeed to escape, would attract a bunch of like-minded other guys,
would build a new civilization on some fringe planets, and his
descendants would return in a couple thousand years conquering
everything with their new super-duper-gizmos.
OR, in a 10000 years period, someone with a BRAIN would come to rule,
for a change. How many morons can you have in charge in an
uninterrupted line?? "Hey before mind scrubbing the guy let's try the
weapon, maybe it actually WORKS...."
All it takes is for two or three of the High Lords of Terra to be
competent enough to know what's good for them and for the Imperium.
And besides, I don't recall any remark about them being idiots. And
they DO know the truth. SOMEONE's gotta have access to all those
secret imperial documents...
That's yet another of my gripes. It's impossible to have a totally
incompetent ruling elite for 10000 years. By statistical laws,
someone decent is going to be in charge, sooner or later...

> I would apply this to the eldar, because teh background, old or new
has
> never stated they were stagnant, for al lwe know they have made new
things,
> GW is just lazy and hasn't come around to writing about it. Note
however
> they HAVE mentioned squats are making big headway in tech (they
mention
> something about a stable warp-plasma generator), but then again the
Imperium
> pretty much ignores that source as all others.

So how didn't they conquer anyone else yet? 10.000 years is a pretty
long time. Sorry Peter, I still think that the overall technology
curve is an hyperbole. The more gizmos you have, the more easily you
can research new ones. The process is self-supporting. Just look at
CPU's speeds increase. And guess what... every new CPU helps in the
design of the next-generation ones through CAD processes.

> Thats the point, HOW do you improve what they got, can it? A longer
range
> weapon implies better power source, what better power source? thats
> innovation no duplication. Better flyers? lighter materials, better
power
> source again not copying, its innovation. They have relearned what
they have
> lost and how to repair it somewhat, but building a better mouse
traps takes
> you back to the basic tennants of research and they dont have the
attitude
> or teh coordination to do it as tehy are now.

Then again, they' re in no position to control a galaxy well enough
to stop everyone.
 
> Bad example, a psyker is an inate ability you are either strong or
you are
> not. To be an inventor you need more than "inbuilt ability" and the
Imperium
> does not foster any program that "collects" geniuses.

I'd imagine testing and training processes get improved over time...

> Nope. What are teh AM a cream to? There is no more but them and
also
the
> background explicitly states that the mission of the AM is to
"keep"
and
> maintain the purity of knowledge. They have no goal beyond
preserving it,
> there is no mention of working to progress it.

This does not mean that a certain percentage of them does not develop
a certain curiosity about how the machines they're using every day of
their life actually work. It's human nature after all, eh? And
mindscrubbing everyone just won't do. Too expensive, I'd assume, or
you wouldn't want to kill whole armies (Exterminatus process,
commonly used for IG armies who've faced Chaos...)

> Quite easy and it has happened in many of our institutions during
history.
> The AM is an institution of power, thus those in control of it
exert
power.
> Rule number one of those in power? Maintain power. Power is
maintained by
> force of will, force and playing off opposition groups against each
other.

Exacly my point, Peter. If you are in power you want to mantain the
status quo. And if you're oppressing 99%+ of the total population,
you *NEED* efficient military control. So why curtain military
improvements? Seems pretty senseless to me.
Also, another logical inference is that military constitutes a
sizable part of the ruling elite. Now, I've never known a general who
is unhappy about having better weapons available...

> In some of the GW novels the AM is portrayed as a bunch of priests
that
> foucs on some pet-project and do anything to further it, even at
the
expense
> of other "collegues". This is due to the fact that he that brings
in
more
> old knowledge (note the emphasis on old not new) gains influence
and
power.
> When power is an issue anything goes. The Roman empire lasted in
this frame
> of mind 500 after the first Emperor and thats a small piece of land
on one
> planet, multiply the same ploblems on a galactic scale and it can
easily go
> on a long time, as long as teh institution itself exists. The AM
like all
> institutions in the Imperium seek to perpetuate themselves at any
cost.

The Roman Legions did nothing but improve over the course of their
history. Late Roman Empire was pretty decadent and socially
inefficient, but it was an absolute military juggernaut. AND - when
the social inefficience reached too high a point, the legions turned
on each other and the empire finally crumbled. GW's Imperium as you
describe it is on the verge on total collapse. This is all fair and
good, but you cannot remain on the verge of collapse for thousands of
years. Either you improve, or you collapse.
 
> The elite are self-involved and decadent as long as they have it
good where
> is the motivation to research. Innovation during history has never
come from
> the establishment or the so called elite it arises from lower down
since
> they have the most to gain. In essence teh Imperium IS rules by
maniacs with
> no goal further than the status quo

SOCIAL improvements, Peter. I agree with your statement about social
improvements. Military improvements are another matter altogether.
They would be new tools to help the elite mantaining control.
 
You see, the more I consider things, the more unbelievable they
appear to me :-)
I started by thinking a techological stagnation of 10000 years was
pretty ludicrous. Then you described a certain social situation to
justify the technological stop.... but such a situation standing
still for 10000 years looks EVEN MORE UNBELIEVABLE, to me, than just
technology standing still :-)))

Love this discussion, though. Looking at things through someone's
else eyes is always fascinating...


Luca Lettieri
Received on Mon May 29 2000 - 10:27:22 UTC