RE: [Net Epic ML] Re: On Imperial armies and original fluff

From: Peter Ramos <pramos2_at_...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:24:38 -0500

Hi!


This is one of the things I find completely unlogical. Citing the
background which I'm trying to pound into the dirt as proof of what
it's believable is not going to do you any good, Peter :-)

But we must base on what is written otherwise what's the point?

Seriously, given the situation, the Imperium as a whole and the AM in
particular would greatly benefit from some serious research. I can
understand some short-sightdneness (sp??) on the part of the WHOLE
ruling elite, but said elite being short-sighted for 10000 years and
STILL being the ruling elite???

This is my main gripe and the whole point of the discussion,
actually; the Imperium as described is completely a-historical.
Nothing really happens in 10000 years (except a bunch of
wars/rebellions/whatever GW needs to launch its latest promotional
campaign) and, no matter how you look at things, this is just out of
the question. No human society can go on unchanged for 10000 years.
No real human society has ever been completely still; slow maybe, but
even in the most stagnant of societies, ideas circulate, social
pressures build up, and sooner or later they're going to explode....

As pointed out by someone else, they have not been totally stagnant. They
have discovered stuff, they bettered plasma technology, re-discovered STC.
There has been improvement, just not a lot of it.


[Little nitpick: in the original background commerce WAS a factor:
the original WH40K is called *ROGUE TRADER* for a reason; as a matter
of fact, the original Imperium was much more dynamic, a society on
the brink of massive changes which would have either brought it to
total collapse or to a new flourishing. Then the completely
believable situation was "backtracked-extended" for 10000 years and
it suddendly became illogical].

True, in the original fluff there were even examples of Planetary governors
and systems rebelling against Imperial tyranny. As I have stated before,
this I view as illogical. Not that man's advancement has slowed to virtually
nothing, but that man has accepted this for 10000 years is much more
difficult to reason. In every empire throughout history, not matter how
powerful dissent has been voiced by rebellion. To have 10000 years with no
serious one beyond the Heresy IS a stretch

The situation you depict is pretty believable, but in such a state of
affairs there's NO WAY the Imperium would be able to exert the sort
of UTTER, COMPLETE, FLAWLESS control which would be needed to
completely halt the progress of a whole galaxy for 10000 years. In
such a situation, it's more than likely than the most geographically
distant galaxy regions would have seceded from the Imperium, built
their own fleets, and went on evolving their own civilizations which,
in 10000 years, would have became so ludicrously advanced as to be
able to re-unify the galaxy under their own, new empire.
Of course things would not have gone this smooth, but really... all
it takes is a few planets beginning to pay lip service to the central
bureacreacy and then going their own way. If the Imperium hardly
takes notice of full-scale border wars, who is going to care of exact
political details of small, insignificant planet XXX at the other
side of the galaxy??

I agree totally. As I stated above my suspension of disbelief comes to a
stretching halt on this point. While many of the less technologically
advanced planets have no chance of this, there are thousands of tech worlds
that could defend themselves quite well. Also a couple of systems could
easily come together and succeed. More importantly, those free minded rebels
COULD make a concerted research effort and perhaps make the next
technologies that would thwart the empire.

Yep, lack of organization hampered them. It didn't stop them. The
problem is the magnitude of disorganization you need to COMPLETELY
FREEZE EVERYTHING FOR 10000 YEARS IN A WHOLE GALAXY. I'd rather say
you need a perfect organization and an iron will to achieve this kind
of results. I.e., you'd actually need a ruling elite which WANTS
progress to be stopped, and has the means to enforce this on a
galaxy-wide level. Except that, by stopping all progress (thus
including military progress), said elite is undermining its own
control capabilities and thus the means of keeping progress stopped.

The reason it didn't stop for the Germans is that there was urgent need,
even in the face of bad organization. I just don't see Humanity against the
wall yet. Most of its problems come from within, not without.

> Oh Luca! Now this downright wrong. Having been in the medical field
for some
> time, I have seen how research works in the confines of ONE
department, with
> a single centralized authority and guess what? It does hurt teh
overall
> effort.

Again: hurting is one thing; killing is another. Killing for 10000
years is yet another.
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken disk, but this is the
whole point.

But as I and other s have stated it has NOT totally stopped just slowed
down.

> Wrong again, according to the mentality the first question would be
"how do
> you know it works against demon", "have you tested it versus
demons"
and if
> you have there are certain Inquisitorial agencies wish to talk to
you and
> then you dead or mind scrubed.

> All background supports this approach, look at those little sayings
in the
> old books " a thinking mind is one prone to heresy" you actually
think if
> one of these guys thought of something innovative he'd talk about
it? He
> knows what would happen and it isn't a pat on the back for a job
well done.

I'd imagine sooner or later one of these guys would wander off, would
succeed to escape, would attract a bunch of like-minded other guys,
would build a new civilization on some fringe planets, and his
descendants would return in a couple thousand years conquering
everything with their new super-duper-gizmos.
OR, in a 10000 years period, someone with a BRAIN would come to rule,
for a change. How many morons can you have in charge in an
uninterrupted line?? "Hey before mind scrubbing the guy let's try the
weapon, maybe it actually WORKS...."
All it takes is for two or three of the High Lords of Terra to be
competent enough to know what's good for them and for the Imperium.
And besides, I don't recall any remark about them being idiots. And
they DO know the truth. SOMEONE's gotta have access to all those
secret imperial documents...
That's yet another of my gripes. It's impossible to have a totally
incompetent ruling elite for 10000 years. By statistical laws,
someone decent is going to be in charge, sooner or later...

Again I agree on this point. I don't think humanity, given its nature, would
stay quiet for long. But remember even if an AM guys you mention did leave
would the AM leave him? Probably not. Any innovation is going to come from
outside the AM because they are not watched and fear less persecution.

> I would apply this to the eldar, because teh background, old or new
has
> never stated they were stagnant, for al lwe know they have made new
things,
> GW is just lazy and hasn't come around to writing about it. Note
however
> they HAVE mentioned squats are making big headway in tech (they
mention
> something about a stable warp-plasma generator), but then again the
Imperium
> pretty much ignores that source as all others.

So how didn't they conquer anyone else yet? 10.000 years is a pretty
long time. Sorry Peter, I still think that the overall technology
curve is an hyperbole. The more gizmos you have, the more easily you
can research new ones. The process is self-supporting. Just look at
CPU's speeds increase. And guess what... every new CPU helps in the
design of the next-generation ones through CAD processes.

Numbers. Case in point WWII, the Germans were clearly more advance in
virtually every field yet lost. Attrition is key. No one can take on the
Imperium (except the tyranids) because they have one million for every guy
the opponent has, more so with Eldar. Another thing you forget is war
industry. Humans have a million planets in which to produce the stuff of
wars, what do the Eldar have, small asteroid sized planets and exceedingly
few. Although they can inflict terrible casualties on humans they cant win.
To many humans.


This does not mean that a certain percentage of them does not develop
a certain curiosity about how the machines they're using every day of
their life actually work. It's human nature after all, eh? And
mindscrubbing everyone just won't do. Too expensive, I'd assume, or
you wouldn't want to kill whole armies (Exterminatus process,
commonly used for IG armies who've faced Chaos...)

Again true, but it is also human nature to survive. With this "Salem witch"
attitude I'd keep my mouth shut.

Exacly my point, Peter. If you are in power you want to mantain the
status quo. And if you're oppressing 99%+ of the total population,
you *NEED* efficient military control. So why curtain military
improvements? Seems pretty senseless to me.
Also, another logical inference is that military constitutes a
sizable part of the ruling elite. Now, I've never known a general who
is unhappy about having better weapons available...

You only need military tech superiority when you have an enemy who forces
you to do it. Look at real history Soviets and US. The only reason stealth
and other technologies evolved was to give the US the edge. Would have man
gone to the moon when they did without the competition factor, unlikely.
Except for the tyranids there is no foe that powerful to make the Imperium
evolve.

The Roman Legions did nothing but improve over the course of their
history. Late Roman Empire was pretty decadent and socially
inefficient, but it was an absolute military juggernaut. AND - when
the social inefficience reached too high a point, the legions turned
on each other and the empire finally crumbled. GW's Imperium as you
describe it is on the verge on total collapse. This is all fair and
good, but you cannot remain on the verge of collapse for thousands of
years. Either you improve, or you collapse.

The Imperium IS collapsing, it has been for thousands of years. But remember
even the Roman Empire needed that final push. So does the Imperium. I
suspect that the Tyranids ARE that push.

Love this discussion, though. Looking at things through someone's
else eyes is always fascinating...

True. The brain needs as much exercise as the body. Its good to give it that
chance.

Peter
Received on Mon May 29 2000 - 15:24:38 UTC