Hi
I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
Chaos was my second most fighted opponent (after orks) some time ago and it had been never an easy one. I think Chaos cards tend to unbalance the game too much. At first, and you are right, I used to think they were almost game-breakers, but after lots of games and even some very hard-worked victories I've found that they are as unbalancing as Strategy cards in W40k.
It's only a matter of luck, if your opponent gets the good ones, and he is not stupid, you're granted, even with a very good game, a defeat or if you go suicide on your last turn, a draw; there's no victory, because he kills too much of your army without much loose on his side.
Of course, when we talk of big games (12k+) this effect is canceled because your numbers can sustain some loses, but in small games (-6k) I don't like to play against Chaos. Why should I make an strategy to win if he has game spoilers on his hand? This is not the same as SM gunships. When I use gunships my opponent knows what he can expect and how to treat them. When I fight against Chaos I don't know what is he going to throw. Which is the price for gunships? And for Chaos cards? Just count and you'll see.
So, for my viewing point there are three problems:
1. Chaos cards are random, so you never know what are you facing (in the other hand, your opponent also doesn't)
2. They are very very cheap. For 300 points you get three chaos cards, a Big One and no morale checks for his minions while he is alive
3. There are some cards which are quite unbalancing when they are used the right way, the right moment(i.e. growth, horrible stench, uncontrolable flatulence, telekinesis, Warp Freenzy(!!!), Hypnotic gaze (!!!), plaguebearer(!!!), duplication, Invisibility(!!!) ). I think that some of them should only apply to troop stands, not sealed vehicles for obvious reasons.
I also I think that Chaos cards add more colour to the game, BUT I'ts a long time since I said in my gaming group that I wouldn't play another game against chaos until chaos cards were accordly priced for their effects.
At the moment you can expect an average of 3 cards every 1000 - 1250 points, so for a 5k game your opponent will hold 12 -15 cards. Only with three good cards he can get you 10 VP only smashing your best troops, don't say if he also gets objectives...
I think that as Chaos cards have a very clear effect on the game, besides from shielding greater demons, so they should be priced as Titan weapons. Let the chaos player keep a part of his army cost for cards and when he draws the cards, he pays for the ones he likes. These are kept in one side, the others, which he has not paid, could only be used to save demons. This would solve problem 2. If the payed cards where shown when drawed would solve problem 1. And for the third problem, perhaps a good adjustement of prices would be enough.
Just think, I've got to pay for a chaplain that gives a +1 to CAF, (true it's every turn, but my opponent knows it exists and where he is and it can be voided killing him) while Chaos gets cards for free.
And of course, I think Warp Frenzy should be voided.
Sorry to get so long.
Albert
P.D. The main problem with this solution is that leads to a system very similar to WH Fantasy, where you can buy magic items to REALLY unbalance the game.
What do you think?
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Ramos
To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Titan CC
Hi!
heheh, you guys remind me of the first two epic groups I was a part of way back in the day. We used to agrue the crap out of each other and say that teh other was a cheesemonger or other such stuff. Ahhh.. the nostalgia, oddly enough I miss those days.
Chaos power are "psychic" since all powers derive from the same place the warp, or course this means psy-saves and shields apply to those not physical in nature.
Now word or caution, any power, even cards ONLY grant a save IF the power directly affects the model with the save. By teh this I mean powers that affect the unit casting it, lets say the growth card or some kind of shield CANNOT be negated by psy-saves or shields since the power is not directed towards it. I have faced this question before, so I pre-empt in case its on anyones mind <grin>.
Chaos card invoke fear far beyond their meager powers, even the good ones when badly used yield miserable results. Since you are mostly new to chaos, consider this your "honeymoon" period. These types of discussions are common, but once you get used to them and the novelty wears out, its old hat. Remember a particularly great trick with one or more chaos cards works great the first time, but less so every single additional time you use it. Its the learning curve, have fun with it.
Peter
nils.saugen_at_... wrote:
Thanks Peter!I know Chaos is really frustrating the heck out of Rune, and he's had itthough with us pulling apart his Slann army since it first appeared andcaught his interest! Neither of us is familiar with Chaos, so we arelearning while we play. It' dosent help matters much, that our Chaos playeris a really devious SoB. :) And Yes, we draw randomly from the deck!!!! By the way, are Chaos Cardsregarded as psychic powers?What's really strange is that when playing chaos you never think much ofyour cards, while the opponent greatly fears them.... They are best used incombination with each other.As for Deamons hiding, The bloothirster moved forward as fast as it could,through a forrest overcrouded with fanatics and trolls killed of theoposition.Fulgrim took care of business in our set up sone, where t!
he enemy had landedtheir droppods, and he could do that behind a building. Magnus the Red was plased behind som buildings hiding him from half theboard, while he was visible to the other half. But he has got a greatrange!!!As for the rest of the battle, both sides made a lot of mistakes (I guessthat's what happens when you play battles this size), we Certainly hadbetter die rolls (I killed a Warhound with 3 shots from a fanatic supportdetachment....!!!). But the Chaos Army was better put thogether and we hadIMO a far better battleplan, we had designated goals for every detachment inour army. We planned for supported assaults against all objective points andmanaged to capture 6 out of the 8 points.NilsOther than that, and this goes for all special units, you pay to put them onthe board, and it's stupid not to use them. I cant count the number of timesI've brought along psyckers and never gotten to u!
se them.... Thats poorplay!!!!Nils-----Original Message-----From: Peter Ramos [mailto:primarch_at_...]Sent: 4. mars 2001 19:06To: netepic_at_yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [NetEpic ML] Titan CCHi!Karlsen Rune wrote:
Yes, you're right, im talking about the lure of slaanesh.But, as far as i know, there isnt a moral check. At least,the legion which gets the card doesnt have a check.Thats the way its been played at least. I dont doubtthat ive been screwed over by the chaos players,since i really dont know that much about how the armyworks. I mean, ive read the rules, but ive notmemorized them :)
The chaos marine legion gift card, when used, is automatic in effect, but effects ONE unit as per its orders within 25cm range. The primarch fulgrim power requires morale checks, but can affect more units.I have seen it all as far as chaos. Its one of the armies i play more frequently. For every one player who says chaos is hard to beat with "x" army, another tells me he can't win a game with chaos because they are weak.The main problem is not all the cards but the precious few "real good ones" in the deck and their interpretation. I'm going to assume the chaos cards are given out randdmly as per teh rules and the chaos player is not "selecting" them. If not theres your first major problem.
This is only one of the things i find strange about somechaos powers. Like the way some dont discriminate betweengood units or lousy ones. The burning bodies card,for example. Since its a non-physical psychic card,it doesnt differenciate between units. No matter ifthey are 0 CAF infantry with no save which area dime a dousin, or Vanguards with 4+ fixed save.
Why should they discrimiate? I have have a saying for this "magic is magic and it affects anything". Most of the powerful magic affects the mind/soul so armor doesn't amount to much. Those powers that grant saves and have modifiers are thwarted by fixed saves. So powers DO discriminate, BUT it depends which you are talking about.
These cards may not be that valuable when playingagainst f.ex IG, they are indeed game killers whenplayed against the Slann. Not to mention thatevery time we play chaos, there are A LOT of discussionsabout rules and powers. The result is always : "Canaffect any unit" or "Can be played at any time".I agree its in chaos' nature to be unpredictable,but if they were this good, they'd have overrunthe universe a long time ago....Who can stand a chanceexcept those who have units like the astropath?
Thats the point fight power with power. If you battle chaos without even one psyker your asking for trouble. Even one gives you that certain edge. Do you absolutely need it to win? No. But then you must come up with different ways to deal with different strategies.
Our chaos player has also adopted a very good strategyagainst us. He simply hides his demons, so thatwe cant take any cards away from him, and usehis legions and juggers to attack. VERY effectivein conjunction with some of the awesome "no save, no how"powers/cards. I've pointed out that a demon wouldprobably not hide behind buildings, and would certainlynot retreat into the setup zone to hide behind abuilding. He certainly agrees to this, but there areno rules against this, and wont admit that itscheesy. Its in fact a very sound tactic! Never mindthat the demons behave like cowards :)
Some chaos players do this, I dont find it distressing, actually I like it, because when they hide they can use some of their powers due to lack of LOS, more importantly most of their powers are short ranged, so if they are not being used agressively they will never be used against my main line hanging back shooting.Ask Darius and Ed how I play my greater demons, they never hide, better to use its awesome powers once and then die, to hide and not use it at all, its a waste. This style of play rarely influences the number of cards I have in my hand, becasue I am willing to let a demon die, rather to expend cards i need elsewhere.The jugger/bloodletter assault are all too familar to me and very easily swept aside with water ever army you use, here the simple do and donts:Against juggers1. hide in terrain they cant go in namely buildings, it doesn't matter how good they are if th!
ey can't get you2. shot them long before they reach you. Its a common mistake to wait when they are in charging distance to fire at them. Make them your targets with barrages or whatever you got from the get go. The less they are before they reach you the better.3. sacrificial lamb- commonly players use their fast attack vehicles in predicable forward rushes. Why not keep them in reserve until they are in range and charge THEM first. You may not breal them, but its another turn they dont move forward and you shot them to pieces, especially on advance fire after the fight is over4. fighting withdrawl- use units with a fair amount of firepower and range, shoot on advance then move on advance backwards. It will give you at least one turn bonus for shooting at them. It takes a frontline jugger 3 turns to cross the 80cm that separates you, make it pay for advancing.Against bloodletters1. use weapons that fire in t!
he movement phase or orders phase like the drop pods or wave serpent, even if you get ONE, they can't break coherency with the regenerating unit, since it is not "dead". This stops them for one turn, while you turn up the heat.2. snap fire, I know you dont use it, but its the single most easiest way to stop them while moving.3. you can mix in some of the above "jugger" tactics too
Like the game we played yesterday. Slann/SM vs. Chaos andRenegade armies. After 2 rounds, Chaos 104? Slann/SM 46 ithink.. Both armies made mistakes, and they had quitea few lucky dice rolls (like taking out a scout titanwith 3 shots from HW infantry. BUT, its just too goodwhen they can charge an OP, make the unit invis after CC,and noone can shoot in. And take out a titan in oneaverage rolled shot. And take over a necron detachmentafter the overtakers had moved (no save of course,why would there be any, they're "chaos powers" afterall), then play a chaos card on that very same detachment (after CC) and charge 10 more cms to another detachment.One by one, they're not gamekillers. Together, theyare. With chaos cards, you can always adjust. They'remore than equalizers. Before i played chaos, i sawthe discussions going on on this list, but i neverreally took any notice of!
them. Now i understand whatthey were all griping about..
I repeat, they are getting their cards randomly..right? You seem to mention the same powers each and every game. Out of a deck of 42 cards ther are only 12 cards that good, to get them in every game you have mentioned is odd....Still, I dont see the problem, but I think its more your lack of exposure to certain "deadly" combinations. The "charge-win-close-combat-and-use-another-card-to-fight-again-or-become-insivible" ploy is well known to me. Only ONE unit can do it, because the cards will be discarded afterwards. The best defense is to avoid being in the situation to begin with. He can only do this to you in open ground or other terrain the juggers can move around, so dont dump troops in such a place. I usually use bait, leave one such unit in an objective in open ground, and lots of firepwoer in surrounding terrain (well farther than 10cm). He could still go invisible fine, but r!
emember an invsibile unit CANNOT act in any way after the power takes affect. So just roll in a friendly unit and contest teh objective, its neither his or yours. The list of anti-tricks is long, but its a matter of your familiarity with them.
The good news is that we all agreed the Slann look goodnow. We thought the necron titan is overpriced at 750,but thats just after one game. Against another army,it might be more balanced. I can certainly understandwhy noone wanted to play against the Slann beforethey were balanced (except Nils of course, he lovesto be the underdog), i have just the same feelingagainst chaos. I cant imagine how its possible tobeat chaos with the orks for example...
Good, I thought as much, As for chaos, your "new" to them, it takes some getting used to their "tricks" once thats out of the way, counterploys become easier to deal with.PeterTo unsubscribe send e-mail to: netepic-unsubscribe_at_egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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Received on Tue Mar 06 2001 - 00:10:41 UTC