Re: [NetEpic ML] Titan CC

From: Peter Ramos <primarch_at_...>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:15:48 -0500

Hi!

Albert Farr� Benet wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
> I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
>
>
>
> Chaos was my second most fighted opponent (after orks) some time ago
> and it had been never an easy one. I think Chaos cards tend to
> unbalance the game too much. At first, and you are right, I used to
> think they were almost game-breakers, but after lots of games and even
> some very hard-worked victories I've found that they are as
> unbalancing as Strategy cards in W40k.
>
>
>
> It's only a matter of luck, if your opponent gets the good ones, and
> he is not stupid, you're granted, even with a very good game, a defeat
> or if you go suicide on your last turn, a draw; there's no victory,
> because he kills too much of your army without much loose on his side.
>
How so? I played very good chaos players in my day (trained by me, hehe)
and still I pull out wins as frequently as I lose, great hand
non-withstanding.

>
>
> Of course, when we talk of big games (12k+) this effect is canceled
> because your numbers can sustain some loses, but in small games (-6k)
> I don't like to play against Chaos. Why should I make an strategy to
> win if he has game spoilers on his hand? This is not the same as SM
> gunships. When I use gunships my opponent knows what he can expect and
> how to treat them. When I fight against Chaos I don't know what is he
> going to throw. Which is the price for gunships? And for Chaos cards?
> Just count and you'll see.
>
>
>
> So, for my viewing point there are three problems:
>
> 1. Chaos cards are random, so you never know what are you facing (in
> the other hand, your opponent also doesn't)
>
> 2. They are very very cheap. For 300 points you get three chaos cards,
> a Big One and no morale checks for his minions while he is alive
>
> 3. There are some cards which are quite unbalancing when they are used
> the right way, the right moment(i.e. growth, horrible stench,
> uncontrolable flatulence, telekinesis, Warp Freenzy(!!!), Hypnotic
> gaze (!!!), plaguebearer(!!!), duplication, Invisibility(!!!) ). I
> think that some of them should only apply to troop stands, not sealed
> vehicles for obvious reasons.
>
Duplication? Thats no big deal, you can only use it on troop stands, not
vehicles or anything else, its an extra stand, hardly earth-shattering,
and it STILL counts toward your break point, it has liability as well.
Invisibilty, the great boogie man, is pretty inconsequencial power when
you realize that the unit that is invisible cannot attack back either.
Its great to charge or advance troops in the same building and objective
and watch him squirm because he cannot do anything about it, not even
claim the objective. Other than trying to make the opponent waste some
fire, it not a game stopper. Growth, unless you use it on a greater
demon and go titan hunting its worthless. Too narrow a use for a big
yield, every other time you wind up killing minor troops you could have
killed without the card any way. The cards that reduce CAF like
uncontollable flatulence and horrible stench, can be easily thwarted by
not engaging in large close combat with chaos. Yo are supposed to shoot
them not play their game.You can always guess when the chaos player has
this card, he starts ammasing good CC troops around vital areas,
conforted by the fact he'll use those cards to keep you off. Just attack
several objectives at once make him choose which he'll keep, he can't
keep them all. Telekensis, after the netepic restriction on titans and
praetorianns it's not that great anymore, only in conjunction with some
other dirty tricks, it yields a better result. Actually playing it on
your own models (like removing a vital model from a bad situation) is by
far better use than an offensive ploy. Warp frenzy? Why is that so good?
You have to play ALL you cards on one model, most of the time some
powers get wasted becuase the circumstance isn't optimal for a certain
power, besides a fear causing or CAF boost, haven't seen this do much
amongst experienced players, heck if you get invisibility you are
screwed, because all cards are played simultaneously, you end up with a
invisible unit that moves and can't attack, hardly what you want.
Hypnotic gaze is nice, but must operate within confines of the orders,
plus it doesn't affect titans or praetorians.

It's been 9 years since the chaos rules came out, I rarely see something
new nowadays, as I said it's a matter of the learning curve. Nothing is
really as good as you think. Of course keep in mind net epic HAS close
the loop on a lot of abuse. But I just don't see any card being a big
deal. Every time I hear one mentioned on the list, a dozen ways around
it come to mind.

>
>
> I also I think that Chaos cards add more colour to the game, BUT I'ts
> a long time since I said in my gaming group that I wouldn't play
> another game against chaos until chaos cards were accordly priced for
> their effects.
>
>
>
> At the moment you can expect an average of 3 cards every 1000 - 1250
> points, so for a 5k game your opponent will hold 12 -15 cards. Only
> with three good cards he can get you 10 VP only smashing your best
> troops, don't say if he also gets objectives...
>
Isn't that the same ratio now? With the current rules I usually have
12-15 cards per 5-6k games. Remember 3 chaos cards DO NOT cost just 300
points for a greater demon, according to the rules each greater MUST
have AT LEAST 3 support cards attached to it, so the chaos cards are
definately not cheap. A modest support card attachment can run you about
600 points for 3 cards and the demon, imagine all five support cards and
throwing in good stuff. In essence you do get 3 chaos cards for every
1000-1250 points. Throw in demon engines and titans an you may see that
those 3 chaos cards can be as high as 2000+, more so in case of
primarchs who may attach chaos marine companies. They are NOT cheap.

>
>
> I think that as Chaos cards have a very clear effect on the
> game, besides from shielding greater demons, so they should be priced
> as Titan weapons. Let the chaos player keep a part of his army cost
> for cards and when he draws the cards, he pays for the ones he likes.
> These are kept in one side, the others, which he has not paid, could
> only be used to save demons. This would solve problem 2. If the payed
> cards where shown when drawed would solve problem 1. And for the third
> problem, perhaps a good adjustement of prices would be enough.
>
I disagree, chaos cards as per my explanation above ARE VERY expensive,
you pay for them in the way the army is set up. Their effect on the game
is more dramatic when an experienced players faces one who is not,
between to able players, its an edge, but a slim one. One can very
easily lose big, even with a flawless card game, all it takes is an
opponent who knows how to minimize your gains with the cards.

>
>
> Just think, I've got to pay for a chaplain that gives a +1 to CAF,
> (true it's every turn, but my opponent knows it exists and where he is
> and it can be voided killing him) while Chaos gets cards for free.
>
Again, they are NOT free, mekboy cards for the orks are free, eldar get
free speical cards, etc. Chaos cards are amongst the most expensive
cards to get because you MUST buy one greater demon and three support
cards. Even if you attached three rhinos to it, it would still cost 450
for three cards. Also it must be said that if you strictly apply the
cost formulas to greater demons they are no where near 300 points. So
again you are paying for those cards built in to the greater demon.In
other words the demons worth IS the chaos cards, even Magnus hyped up
beam is poor excuse to dump 300 point on a model with nothing else. The
chaos cards make the demons worth taking.

> And of course, I think Warp Frenzy should be voided.
>
Nah, does good job of "voiding" itself. In 9 years I have only seen a
"frenzied" model do real good-once!

>
>
> Sorry to get so long.
>
Thank a bunch for the input Albert!!!

Peter
Received on Tue Mar 06 2001 - 02:15:48 UTC