Re: [Epic] Titans and Eldar (looooong) (was: Titans and CC)

From: <duckrvr_at_...>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:31:01 -0600

At 07:04 PM 3/14/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>I disagree here. The eldar have the speed and numbers. Don't try to out
>>eldar the eldar. As an eldar player, my biggest problems have been morale,
>>and opponents who successfully concentrate their forces.
>
><snip>You don't want to use your speed to move side
>to side, you need it to cross the board ASAP. You can't win if you
>don't destroy the enemy, and the quickest way to kill troops in epic is
>CC.

The problem with trying to cc eldar is that even on advance, most of their
units are fast enough to get out of charge range if you win initiative, and
can't be pinned if the eldar player wins initiative. Also, while the
side-to-side movement can be used effectively, I did not mean to imply that
it was the primary way of using maneuver to your advantage. I just
emphasize it because everyone seems to think charging across the board is
the only thing you can do.

>As for morale, I think, in the current system, it has very little influence
>on the outcome of the game. By the time a unit actually might go on fall
>back orders it has either been reduced to the point of uselessness, or
>it has been wiped out altogether. When those little 2-4 stand detatchments
>break, it means there are only 1-2 survivors, and of those few units,
>only 1/3 (or less for aspects) will actually fail morale.

I emphasized targeting units with low morale (falcons, wave serpents,
doomweavers, etc). It takes 5 falcons to break a company, so on average you
will lose 4/3 of a falcon due to morale. That's a 26.67% bonus to the
number of kills you have. I would hardly call that insubstantial. When you
start looking at wave serpent and doomweaver detachments, that second one
runs off 33% of the time. Then when you tack on things like blooc claws and
demons forcing morale checks, it all adds up to a big potential increase in
casualties. Does it give you opponent more VPs? Not directly, but the
reduction in firepower WILL keep you from scoring VPs and the lack of units
to secure an objective certainly hurts.

<snip> [about the eldar being good against the troop wave . . .]
>This is only true if you have failed to concentrate your army.

And I also said that besides morale, the biggest difficulty I face with
eldar is an opponent who can successfully concentrate his troops.

>first turn the assualts charge forward, unload, and spread out. <snip> Now
is not the time
>to worry about casualties.

first problem. Maybe the guys you play with don't do this, but I usually
have enough warlocks that few of my detachments need orders, and when I see
a wall fo charge orders on turn one, I go to advance orders everywhere
(except banshees, scorpions, etc). Ever see what 2 detachments of Vypers on
advance can do to infantry? Nasty. Anyway, if you lose initiative, the
eldar are fast enough that there willbe very few places to hide, and if you
win I will have a higher percentageof stuff on ff (remember I dont' have to
place orders until after I see yours, which is after initiative). You may
not worry about casualties, but they still have an effect later on.

>The one or two detatchements on the right flank make for objectives and
>try to looky *very* harmless. If they fail they just try to sell
>themselves as dearly as possible.

One or two detachments of aspects are much better at securing remote
objectives than any other infantry I can think of, and I will usually
dedicate one detachment per objective. Also, unless your opponent
concentrates his forces in the same manner you do, your guys are swingin in
the breeze, as they will be seriously outnumbered.

> From experience, I can
>almost guarentee that the 100+ stand assault force swarming onto his
>side of the table *will* become his primary concern.

Probably so, but you anly have about 75 plus rhinos.

>If he hits you
>with aspects, you take the casualties and destroy the aspects during the
>advance fire phase using the command units (hold their fire), tacs, and
>devestators if necessary. The VP exchange will favor you so long as you
>destroy the aspects right away (they should be your primary target).

first, not "if" he uses aspects, "when" he uses aspects. second, you are
assuming that you will have enough firepower scattered around to see most of
the stands after cc, which is possible, but it leaves you open for . . .
three, if you concentrate on the aspects, that leaves falcons, prism
cannons, and firestorms to use their firepower on your troops, too.

>The titans shoot at expensive stuff. Take some barrage missles (3) to blast
>wave serpents, weavers, and other thin skinned targets that may be available.

You can only have 2 barrage missiles. One-shots are carapace only.

>It may be tempting to blast jetbikes if they are cowering behind terrain,
>but I thing its more important to knock out the serpents. If the eldar
>player likes to field bunches of serpents, take 6 barrage missles.

MOO? Titans only field 4 weapon mounts, how is this possible?

Other points you have missed are: Warlocks have nifty psychic powers that
go off before first fire. Personally, I'll take a bunch of 1 in 4 chances
to psychic lock a titan armed as you described. Once it is immobilized,
doomweavers ahoy! or cc, or whatever.

>The second turn is more of the same, just keep swarming towards his back
>line units, objectives, whatever is available.

Second turn is NEVER more of the same. first off, all the bikes are within
cc distance of your titan, which was the original problem we were dealing
with. The titan is most likely dead this turn, unless you leave troops to
support it.

> Don't try to CC the aspects,
>just soak up the casualties and retaliate in the advance fire phase.

Don't worry, they'll cc you. With the stand density you are talking about,
I woudl expect that 1 out of 3 of the aspect stands could be positioned to
touch 2 of your stands, so that's a 3 vs 4, with probable casualties of 1 vs
4. So you BETTER be retaliating big time.

> The
>tacs, which should have advanced towards objectives if possible, settle down
>on FF orders. You can also use couple of scout dets. to secure objectives
>you have overrun.

Agreed. They will be hard to knock off the objectives.

>The devestators will be able to cover the charge for the first two turns,
>after that it doesn't matter. If you've got him fighting in his own
>deployment zone, he's lost.

Where do you get this? Maximum speed, you get 50cm turn 1, and 20 on turn
2. that's only 70 cm out of an 80 cm no man's land, not counting terrain,
and the fact that you ahve to stop and fight along the way. You might make
it 3rd turn, but I say the chances are slim.

  If he goes for the titans with his bikes
>(not likely IMO) you have the devestators and some of the tacs around to
>help out. If he hits you with a couple of wind hosts, he'll get the
>titans, so make him pay at the other end.

At 6-7K you seem to be forgetting that he _will_ have 2 windhosts, 3 falcon
hosts, possibly his own titan, lots of warlocks, lots of aspects, and still
have room left over for doomweavers, wave serpents, firestorms, or whatever.

>My experience is that the eldar has 2 turns to either come up with
>something clever or to kill about 60 stands of the assault force.

I'd say that's accurate. On that side of the board.

>Eldar
>armies will be hard pressed to inflict that kind of losses, especially
>if you got his serpents (the best barrage weapon in the game). It's
>quite possible to lose with this army, but it will often through a monkey
>wrench into the eldar battle plans.

Killing 60 stands? Not a problem with 1st turn initiative. 2 falcon hosts
= 36 shots = 14 hits (after cover); 4 aspect detachments - I would estimate
25 casualties; 1 doomweaver det - 2-3 casualties, plus slowing something
down; 2 warlocks + falcons - 6 casualties; - that's about 45 or 50 already,
NOT coutning the dead titan and whatever units the bikes can pick off. It
becomes a little harder without initiative first turn, but that just delays
many of the casualties (those from aspects) until 3rd turn.

>The other thing is that these tactics assume you lose the first turn
>initiative. If you win, it works even better, as you can charge forward
>and avoid CC altogether (the eldar will probobly be hiding).

Again, if you charge out there like that when you lose initiative, you will
be slaughtered. If you win initiative, the eldar will only be hiding from
the stuff on first fire, which is easy because they don't move. Meanwhile,
they take up a large portion of good hiding place for troops, leaving you in
the open and forcing you to close assault next turn.

>This,
>combined with the fact that the eldar will have to move some of his units
>to take objectives, means it is quite possible to take very few casualties
>on the first turn (15-20 as a guess).

Depending on inititative and terrain, it could be as high as 30.

>The problems of the eldar player
>can be exaserbated if he made a bad deployment and has a significant
>part of his force on the far right flank.

Not by much. Given that the eldar player is fast, and has long range, it
takes little to adjust for such a mistake. Especially, when he gets to see
your orders before he chooses his.

>The other thing to consider is the reaction of the person you're playing.
>You would probobly be surprised by the number of players (even veterens)
>who will simply panic when faced with this situation.

Probably true.

> The *absolute* worst theing he can do,
>which is also probobly the most common reaction, is put his army on FF.
>While he will inflict far heavier casualties, he will let the attack
>move forward unhindered and he will lose all the objectives.

He'll lose the 5 on that side of the board. He'll probably have the other
3. Especially if you put them in the open where his bikes can easily claim
them.

>The
>other thing to remember is that the medics can have a tremendous effect
>on the game. If you get 4-5 medics within range of 4-6 detatchements,
>they will be able to heal up as much as a whole detatchment worth
>of marines.

That might push you over the edge. In fact, I would probably say that would
be teh deciding factor one way or the other. Of course, there are those on
the list that would say it's cheesy, but since I would probably have 5-6
warlocks at that point level, I won't throw stones.

>The assault force *must* accomplish two tasks to be successful, it
>must take 4-6 objectives,

It won't. Even if you take the five you placed on one side fo the board,
the other three are begging to be picked off. You really seem to forget
that the bikes are fast enough to grab those objectives and still get into
the fight (or vice versa).

>and it must draw so much fire as to spare
>the titans and devs. If they do, then you will spend 2 turns inflicting
>casualties on his shooting units while he leaves yours alone.

But you said you were going to concentrate a lot of your firepower on
exposed aspect warriors in the advance phase.

> In any case, the eldar army is not designed to get into
>a pitched melee in the open field; it's not their game and they'll
>lose if they try it. Just as you try to aggressively dictate the
>pace of the game, so will the eldar player. The player who succeeds
>is the one who will win.

Absolutely. I disagree about the aspects vs the assault company, though.
the assaults may win, but it will be because of supporting fire in the
advance phase, not because they will win stand for stand. Meanwhile, as
your support fire goes against the aspects, the eldar support is hammering
your assaults, too.

>>This is true, but you will probably have too much stuff broken to deny him
>>the points, especially, if you don't drop troops along the way to secure
>>objectives.
>
>Like I said, this is deceptive. The assault companies have a collective
>break of 60 and give up 26 VPs (plus 5-6 for the commanders). The devs
>and titans give up 37 VP, so they are actually the bulk of the points,
>and it's quite possible they will go the game untouched. Don't get me
>wrong, the assault force *will* break, all of it. But those are acceptable
>loses in a 6K pt game (assuming it accomplishes it's objectives).
>Again, I'm not saying its a sure thing, only that it is a good army
>if you play it right.

Maybe.


>>While this is true, the eldar are the premier army IMHO for reacting to
>>opponents moves and rapidly correcting mistakes.
>
>True, but as a general rule, the guy who makes the fewest mistakes will
>win.

Wrong. It's the guy who makes the fewest BIG mistakes. While there are
plenty of ways for the eldar to make mistakes, recting to your opponent is
one of the least likely.

>They sure can, I can field a 3000 pt army with 60 stands and 30 command units.
>I quite often have more command units on the field than my opponent has
>infantry.

That's another advantage Orks have over a SM force - command units in
quantity. They can make a huge difference. Especially in smaller games.
At 3k 33% command unit force is incredibly versatile.

>>I don't think the more costly and valuable marines can
>>pull off the "500 million screaming chinamen" force. Besides, you seem to
>>be missing the point that the eldar have lots of stuff to slow down
>>attackers (waveserpents, doomweavers, etc) while they continue to whittle
>>away your forces.
>
>This was my main concern (the cost of the marines). But the marines have
>some big advantages the orks don't have. Namely, medics and a 2+ morale.

Again, I think it's really the medics that will make a difference for this
tactic. Without them I would say you don't have a prayer.

Attempting to be not quite so verbose,
Temp
Received on Mon Mar 17 1997 - 16:31:01 UTC