Re: [Epic] Titans and Eldar (looooong) (was: Titans and CC)

From: DAVID C LADO, DEPT OF NEUROSCIENCE <LADO_at_...>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 19:06:36 -0500 (EST)

>The problem with trying to cc eldar is that even on advance, most of their
>units are fast enough to get out of charge range if you win initiative, and
>can't be pinned if the eldar player wins initiative. Also, while the
>side-to-side movement can be used effectively, I did not mean to imply that
>it was the primary way of using maneuver to your advantage. I just
>emphasize it because everyone seems to think charging across the board is
>the only thing you can do.

Two points. First, remember that I am not counting on the assault force to
inflict casualties, merely to create such a threat that it will draw off
all the firepower of the enemy, and to take and hold objectives (all of
which it can reach by turn 2. Thus, the assault force only needs to
exist as a viable force for the first two turns. This is enough (from
experience) to give you a *chance* of winning, and that is all you can
ask for.

>>first turn the assualts charge forward, unload, and spread out. <snip> Now
>>is not the time
>>to worry about casualties.
>
>first problem. Maybe the guys you play with don't do this, but I usually
>have enough warlocks that few of my detachments need orders, and when I see
>a wall fo charge orders on turn one, I go to advance orders everywhere
>(except banshees, scorpions, etc). Ever see what 2 detachments of Vypers on
>advance can do to infantry?

The only thing I have *ever* seen vipers on advance orders do, is die like
dogs during the FF phase. I think the biggest mistake you can ever make
is to put your army on advace orders, the only thing that happens is you
allow your opponent to inflict all of his casualties before you inflict
yours. *However*, this is my experience with orks; if you go on advance
orders and put-put around nobz, you just die alot (unless you're a titan).
The marines in my example will rely on the devestators to basically fill
that role, and they are more subject to LOS blocking by terrain. However,
assuming you use the standard terrain/objective rules, you will have some
control over the terrain (plus you will obviously choose the more open
side of the table to place the objectives). If you change the rules/
amount of objectives on the board, you will have to alter your tactics.

>Nasty. Anyway, if you lose initiative, the
>eldar are fast enough that there willbe very few places to hide, and if you
>win I will have a higher percentageof stuff on ff (remember I dont' have to
>place orders until after I see yours, which is after initiative). You may
>not worry about casualties, but they still have an effect later on.

I don't worry aboutcasualties because I know I will take them no matter
what I do. The question becomes "what would I rather lose, assault and
scouts, or devestators and titans?". Given that the assault force costs
less, has a higher break (by far) and gives up fewer VPs, the answer is
obvious.

>>The one or two detatchements on the right flank make for objectives and
>>try to looky *very* harmless. If they fail they just try to sell
>>themselves as dearly as possible.
>
>One or two detachments of aspects are much better at securing remote
>objectives than any other infantry I can think of, and I will usually
>dedicate one detachment per objective. Also, unless your opponent
>concentrates his forces in the same manner you do, your guys are swingin in
>the breeze, as they will be seriously outnumbered.

For every detatchment/point he outnumbers the marines on the weak side,
he will be outnumbered on the strong side. Given the majority of ojectives
are on that side, it a chance worth taking.

>> From experience, I can
>>almost guarentee that the 100+ stand assault force swarming onto his
>>side of the table *will* become his primary concern.
>
>Probably so, but you anly have about 75 plus rhinos.

36 scouts +
36 assaults +
18 rhinos +
5 company commanders +
5 special card commanders (medics and librarians) +
10 command rhinos
= 110 stands (I'm not sure if the scouts get company commanders though)

>If he hits you
>with aspects, you take the casualties and destroy the aspects during the
>advance fire phase using the command units (hold their fire), tacs, and
>devestators if necessary. The VP exchange will favor you so long as you
>destroy the aspects right away (they should be your primary target).

>>The titans shoot at expensive stuff. Take some barrage missles (3) to blast
>>wave serpents, weavers, and other thin skinned targets that may be available.
>
>You can only have 2 barrage missiles. One-shots are carapace only.

Uh, 1 per titan (I always think of the titans as a single unit).

>>It may be tempting to blast jetbikes if they are cowering behind terrain,
>>but I thing its more important to knock out the serpents. If the eldar
>>player likes to field bunches of serpents, take 6 barrage missles.
>
>MOO? Titans only field 4 weapon mounts, how is this possible?

see above. 2 per titan. Personally, I find this cheesy, but it works.
(MOO? Is this a problem with mad cow disease? ;)

>Other points you have missed are: Warlocks have nifty psychic powers that
>go off before first fire. Personally, I'll take a bunch of 1 in 4 chances
>to psychic lock a titan armed as you described. Once it is immobilized,
>doomweavers ahoy! or cc, or whatever.

No, I haven't overlooked the warlocks. First, I think we can both agree
that there are better options than titans when fighting the eldar.
Second, remember I put the titans all the way in the back (*all* the way).
My principle reason was to prevent flyers from getting behind them (I
would rather have the titans shooting at flyers than the devestators).
However, if I recall correctly, the psychic lock has a range of 50 cm,
this means in order to use it, your warlocks will have to step into
the center of the marine army, where probobly everything will have LOS
(remember all those command units shoot 360 degrees). Like I said,
you can't keep the titans alive against a determined enemy, but you
make him bleed for his decisions.

>>The second turn is more of the same, just keep swarming towards his back
>>line units, objectives, whatever is available.
>
>Second turn is NEVER more of the same. first off, all the bikes are within
>cc distance of your titan, which was the original problem we were dealing
>with. The titan is most likely dead this turn, unless you leave troops to
>support it.
 
I hadn't forgotten this either. Like you, I assumed a force with at least
two wind host (pretty standard fair in my experience), and a healthy mix
of other units. The windriders will be able to either stop the assault
force, *or* attack the titans (in one turn). If they split, they will
most like do neither. Remember that the devestators and tacticals (2 dets)
whould be deployed with LOS to some or all the titans. This is sufficient
firepower to destroy about 3 detatchemnts of bikes, unless the second
windhost goes into CC witht he tacs and devs to pull their fire. Thus,
I think realistyically it will require most of both the windhosts, leaving
only 2 or three detatchemns of bikes to deal with the assault force.
Also, I have never met a player, eldar or otherwise, with the intestinal
fortitude to ignore such a large assault force, even when it was (IMO)
the better choice.

>> Don't try to CC the aspects,
>>just soak up the casualties and retaliate in the advance fire phase.
>
>Don't worry, they'll cc you. With the stand density you are talking about,
>I woudl expect that 1 out of 3 of the aspect stands could be positioned to
>touch 2 of your stands, so that's a 3 vs 4, with probable casualties of 1 vs
>4. So you BETTER be retaliating big time.

Not really. From experience, a two foot wide section of board (1/4 the
table) will accomidate a row of 8 stands spaced 6 cm apart, or 10 stands
spaced about 4 cm apart. Thus, if yo charge the rhinos 35 cm, it will leave
the assualt troops 9 cm of movement. The first takes his full 9 while the
second takes about 5 cm. This allows the entire company to straddle the
center line of the board in a formation 2 feet wide and about 10 cm deep
with about 4 cm seperation between stands. I know this because I use a
similar formation with my orks when I use battlewagons (though orks arn't
as fast). This will allow the aspects to CC 4 stands each, which they
will probobly kill. In return, they will be broken during the advance
fire phase. This is a perfectly acceptable exchange.

>>The devestators will be able to cover the charge for the first two turns,
>>after that it doesn't matter. If you've got him fighting in his own
>>deployment zone, he's lost.
>
>Where do you get this? Maximum speed, you get 50cm turn 1, and 20 on turn
>2. that's only 70 cm out of an 80 cm no man's land, not counting terrain,
>and the fact that you ahve to stop and fight along the way. You might make
>it 3rd turn, but I say the chances are slim.

Assualts move 30, 45 cm on the first turn, 75 on the second, to the back
of the deployment zone on the third. The scouts infiltrate, so they get
30 cm on the first turn (they don't want to crowd the assaults), 50 on
the second, and 70 on the third. Probobly enough to reach any objectives.

> If he goes for the titans with his bikes
>>(not likely IMO) you have the devestators and some of the tacs around to
>>help out. If he hits you with a couple of wind hosts, he'll get the
>>titans, so make him pay at the other end.
>
>At 6-7K you seem to be forgetting that he _will_ have 2 windhosts, 3 falcon
>hosts, possibly his own titan, lots of warlocks, lots of aspects, and still
>have room left over for doomweavers, wave serpents, firestorms, or whatever.

Like I said, these units, if played competently, will inflict casualties
on *something*, and I always assume my opponent will play competently.
If I can get my opponent to kill infantry while I kill
falcons, thats the best I can hope for. If he's good enough to kill
the assault force and the titans, then obviously he will win. I'm not
trying to protect the titans so much as make the assault force so
intimidating he will ignore the titans.

>>Eldar
>>armies will be hard pressed to inflict that kind of losses, especially
>>if you got his serpents (the best barrage weapon in the game). It's
>>quite possible to lose with this army, but it will often through a monkey
>>wrench into the eldar battle plans.
>
>Killing 60 stands? Not a problem with 1st turn initiative. 2 falcon hosts
>= 36 shots = 14 hits (after cover); 4 aspect detachments - I would estimate
>25 casualties; 1 doomweaver det - 2-3 casualties, plus slowing something
>down; 2 warlocks + falcons - 6 casualties; - that's about 45 or 50 already,
>NOT coutning the dead titan and whatever units the bikes can pick off. It
>becomes a little harder without initiative first turn, but that just delays
>many of the casualties (those from aspects) until 3rd turn.

I never try to bean count the casualties inflicted by direct fire (the
estimates I give are from experience) becasue things never work out
that simply. On the first turn, a significant part of the eldar
army will be on the move, not to mention that some units may be destroyed
by barrage missles and the like before they fire. What I can say is
that the best I have ever seen an Eldar army do is 33 casualties in the
FF phase, and that was with the support of a devestator company (the
only infantry he had). I designed this army to beat "sit back and shoot"
styles of armies, and I firmly believe that you will not beat it with
firepower alone, because the eldar are too expensive to sit and trade
stands in a slugfest (which is exactly what I'm trying to draw them
into). The eldar beat this army by doing their schtick, and trying
to draw the game out.

>>>The other thing is that these tactics assume you lose the first turn
>>>initiative. If you win, it works even better, as you can charge forward
>>>and avoid CC altogether (the eldar will probobly be hiding).
>
>Again, if you charge out there like that when you lose initiative, you will
>be slaughtered. If you win initiative, the eldar will only be hiding from
>the stuff on first fire, which is easy because they don't move. Meanwhile,
>they take up a large portion of good hiding place for troops, leaving you in
>the open and forcing you to close assault next turn.

Granted, but the question becomexs, "can the eldar destroy this force
without giving up just as many or more VPs?". My experience is, that if
the eldar charge out and get into a massive scrum on the first or second
turn, when the assault force is at it's greatest stregnth, that they
will give up as many VPs as they take (if not more). Those aspects have
to kill 6 stands each (per detachment) to break even on points, more to
break even in VP. If you charge them into an open field on the first
turn (which is where the assault force will be), most will die on that
first turn. I think we both agree that this is not the style of play
the eldar want.

>>The problems of the eldar player
>>can be exaserbated if he made a bad deployment and has a significant
>>part of his force on the far right flank.
>
>Not by much. Given that the eldar player is fast, and has long range, it
>takes little to adjust for such a mistake. Especially, when he gets to see
>your orders before he chooses his.

I have to agree. I always hope my opponent will make mistakes, but I never
count on it. An eldar player would have to deploy very badly to leave
himself so far out of position he couldn't react back on the first turn.

>> The *absolute* worst theing he can do,
>>which is also probobly the most common reaction, is put his army on FF.
>>While he will inflict far heavier casualties, he will let the attack
>>move forward unhindered and he will lose all the objectives.
>
>He'll lose the 5 on that side of the board. He'll probably have the other
>3. Especially if you put them in the open where his bikes can easily claim
>them.

The 3 on the weak side would almost certainly have been place by the eldar
player, given that I concentrated my 4 on the other side. I don't care where
those 3 are because I have basically written them off. The only reason
I have any troops there at all is to insure that the eldar player leaves
something to garrison them.

>>The assault force *must* accomplish two tasks to be successful, it
>>must take 4-6 objectives,
>
>It won't. Even if you take the five you placed on one side fo the board,
>the other three are begging to be picked off. You really seem to forget
>that the bikes are fast enough to grab those objectives and still get into
>the fight (or vice versa).

I don't worry about any objectives on the weak side, I am after the ones
on the other side. I never worry about the bikes either, because if the
ojective is in the open, I can shoot him off of it. If it's in terrain then
infantry can always sneak in and take it. It's the aspects that are
the problem. Good eldar players will, as you have said, assign a det
of aspects to each objective. It is nearly impossible to to root a
detactment of scorpions off an objective in the woods, though the new
"speculative barrage" rules help somewhat.

>>and it must draw so much fire as to spare
>>the titans and devs. If they do, then you will spend 2 turns inflicting
>>casualties on his shooting units while he leaves yours alone.
>
>But you said you were going to concentrate a lot of your firepower on
>exposed aspect warriors in the advance phase.
 
I was relying on the titans to do this (kill shooty stuff). The others
would, as you say, concentrate on killing the aspects. They can avoid
going into CC, but in so doing the eldar drastically reduce their ability
to inflict casualties on the first turn. As a side note, a good thing
about command units is that they fire seperately, meaning you can
maximize their efficiency, because you rarely find yourself putting
multiple dice on one stand (thereby allowing the chance of a redundant,
wasted, hit). In either case, if the the assault troops (including the
scouts) can stay with LOS of the devestators, the aspects are in
for a world hurt when they come out to play. The eldar player will,
or course, be trying to avoid this situation. This is the sort of
intangible that makes the game worth playing; there would be no point
if the outcome were predetermined. I'm just saying that, with foresight
and careful deployment, you can give yourself a chance to win.

>Absolutely. I disagree about the aspects vs the assault company, though.
>the assaults may win, but it will be because of supporting fire in the
>advance phase, not because they will win stand for stand. Meanwhile, as
>your support fire goes against the aspects, the eldar support is hammering
>your assaults, too.

Very true, but I never count on the assaults killing anything (as a matter
of fact, I doubt they will kill anything other than bikes, and those only
if the eldar chooses to fight). I'm just saying that *if* I can kill 3-4
aspects for every 4 stands of assaults (from advance fire) then the
exchange was accetable.

>From the eldar perspective, I think the best thing to do is hold off the
aspects for a turn. On the second turn you can strike with the apects and
bikes, and shoot with the falcons (which were transporting the aspects on
the first turn). This will leave the imperial player with the decision
of killing either the aspects or the bikes, but not both. If you attack
on the first turn, he can kill the aspects and then kill the falcons and
others as they pop up on the second turn.

David (one day I will learn to be concise)

PS I hope people don't feel like Temp and I are flogging a dead horse,
but I would much rather talk tactics than rules or (gag!) read more
complaints about GWs wicked ways (they are wicked, but I've heard it
so many times it's cliche now). This is the first topic I've been
interested in in months.
Received on Tue Mar 18 1997 - 00:06:36 UTC