Re: [Epic] Titans and Eldar (looooong) (was: Titans and CC)

From: Brett Hollindale <agro_at_...>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:51:49 GMT

At 10:11 AM 18/3/97 -0600, you wrote:
>At 07:06 PM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> This is enough (from
>>experience) to give you a *chance* of winning, and that is all you can
>>ask for.
>
>I would say you do have a chance, mostly because of the medics.
>


Yes, the Medics COULD save the day, but _I_ wouldn't count on it...


>>The only thing I have *ever* seen vipers on advance orders do, is die like
>>dogs during the FF phase.


Wouldn't the intervening infantry block LOS from the devastators?


>
>Then someone is not using them properly.
>
>>I think the biggest mistake you can ever make
>>is to put your army on advace orders, the only thing that happens is you
>>allow your opponent to inflict all of his casualties before you inflict
>>yours.


Well, range will play a big part in this, won't it? Any range 100 Eldar
stuff (Firestorms, Tempests) will make mince meat of your devastators
without suffering any return fire...


>
>Of course, if you have a largely skimmer force (like eldar) it also makes
>you immune to close combat.
>
>>I don't worry aboutcasualties because I know I will take them no matter
>>what I do. The question becomes "what would I rather lose, assault and
>>scouts, or devestators and titans?". Given that the assault force costs
>>less, has a higher break (by far) and gives up fewer VPs, the answer is
>>obvious.
>
>I think you are underestimating the amount of firepower that 6,000 points of
>eldar can pack. Frex:
>2 windirder hosts
>3 falcon hosts
>6 aspects of various types
>2 firestorms
>2 doomweaver dets
>2 wave serp dets
>5 warlocks
>1 spirit host
>1 phantom titan w/ either tactical genius or the "dances out of cc" power


I hate buying titan experience abilities, and I hate spirit hosts, but as
you say later, you could take a Phantom Battle Group instead of these two...


>
>And that still leaves 300 points + free card + avatar.
>
>>For every detatchment/point he outnumbers the marines on the weak side,
>>he will be outnumbered on the strong side. Given the majority of ojectives
>>are on that side, it a chance worth taking.
>
>You're still not acknowledging the fact that the eldar can fight one place
>one turn and a different one the next. In short, they can wipe up your weak
>force,and then shift that entire flank (or at least most of it) into the
>main battle.
>
>>>> From experience, I can
>>>>almost guarentee that the 100+ stand assault force swarming onto his
>>>>side of the table *will* become his primary concern.


Well, yeah, they probably will, but they will also probably be obliterated...


>>>
>>>Probably so, but you anly have about 75 plus rhinos.
>>
>>36 scouts +
>>36 assaults +
>>18 rhinos +
>>5 company commanders +
>>5 special card commanders (medics and librarians) +
>>10 command rhinos
>>= 110 stands (I'm not sure if the scouts get company commanders though)
>
>>No, I haven't overlooked the warlocks. First, I think we can both agree
>>that there are better options than titans when fighting the eldar.
>>Second, remember I put the titans all the way in the back (*all* the way).
>>My principle reason was to prevent flyers from getting behind them (I
>>would rather have the titans shooting at flyers than the devestators).
>>However, if I recall correctly, the psychic lock has a range of 50 cm,
>>this means in order to use it,
>
>1) Yes, we did agree that titans suck versus eldar, but you seem to be
>taking 3 of them. 2) The psychic lock has 75 cm range, and the warlocks
>have command falcons that move 50cm. 3) the warlocks are command units, so
>you can't fire at them unless they are the closest thing.


"Unless they are the closest Falcon." A small difference that makes a big
difference...


>Besides, I'll trade a warlock for a titan (even 2 or 3 or 4 warlocks) anyday.
>And if you can cause a meltdown in the midst of his stuff . . .


Pinning the titan and doomweavung it will "destroy it" but I don't think it
will cause a meltdown...


>
>>Not really. From experience, . . . This will allow the aspects to CC 4
>stands each, which they
>>will probobly kill. In return, they will be broken during the advance
>>fire phase. This is a perfectly acceptable exchange.
>
>But they will probably kill another 1-2 stands per detachment next turn
>unless you wipe them out completely. But that doesn't leave much firepower
>against the bikes.
>
>>Assualts move 30, 45 cm on the first turn, 75 on the second, to the back
>>of the deployment zone on the third.
>
>Forgot the extra move. But that is assuming that they dont' engage anythign
>ont he way, and that nothing decides to pin them. It won't happen that way.
>
>>The scouts infiltrate, so they get
>>30 cm on the first turn (they don't want to crowd the assaults), 50 on
>>the second, and 70 on the third. Probobly enough to reach any objectives.
>
>I'm pretty sure scouts infiltrate charge distance, which s 20.
>
>>I never try to bean count the casualties inflicted by direct fire (the
>>estimates I give are from experience) becasue things never work out
>>that simply. On the first turn, a significant part of the eldar
>>army will be on the move, not to mention that some units may be destroyed
>>by barrage missles and the like before they fire.
>
>I think the eldar knowing your orders before movement will allow him to
>counter much of your oening move.
>
>>What I can say is
>>that the best I have ever seen an Eldar army do is 33 casualties in the
>>FF phase, and that was with the support of a devestator company (the
>>only infantry he had).
>
>But that's with a shooty army. An aspect force will inflict considerably
>more when they are in hth.
>
>>I designed this army to beat "sit back and shoot"
>>styles of armies, and I firmly believe that you will not beat it with
>>firepower alone, because the eldar are too expensive to sit and trade
>>stands in a slugfest (which is exactly what I'm trying to draw them
>>into). The eldar beat this army by doing their schtick, and trying
>>to draw the game out.
>
>Um, I think the eldar's schtik is to win as quickly as possible, not to
>draw it out. What if he loses initiative, charges everything onto the 8
>objectives and you can't knock him off? turn 1 those 3 objectives in the
>open on the other side of the board are prime candidates for jet bikes. You
>won't have the firepower to kill htem to a man, so they will be heavily
>contested with one det each. 4 aspect dets in falcons can ably secure 4
>objectives on the crowded side, the warlocks, titan, and remaining falcons
>should do enough damage to grab a few victory points, he might just win
>first turn.
>
>>Granted, but the question becomexs, "can the eldar destroy this force
>>without giving up just as many or more VPs?". My experience is, that if
>>the eldar charge out and get into a massive scrum on the first or second
>>turn, when the assault force is at it's greatest stregnth, that they
>>will give up as many VPs as they take (if not more). Those aspects have
>>to kill 6 stands each (per detachment) to break even on points, more to
>>break even in VP. If you charge them into an open field on the first
>>turn (which is where the assault force will be), most will die on that
>>first turn. I think we both agree that this is not the style of play
>>the eldar want.
>
>that's true
>
>>I don't worry about any objectives on the weak side, I am after the ones
>>on the other side.
>
>But that's 15 VPs. fi you dont' thinkt he eldar can keep at least one of
>the other ones, you're nuts.
>
>>I never worry about the bikes either, because if the
>>ojective is in the open, I can shoot him off of it. If it's in terrain then
>>infantry can always sneak in and take it.
>
>How are you going to guarantee enough firepower to kill five bikes when it's
>late enough in the game that you are making objective grabs? With a 1/3 hit
>percent that's 15 shots, IF you can see them all.
>
>>It's the aspects that are
>>the problem. Good eldar players will, as you have said, assign a det
>>of aspects to each objective. It is nearly impossible to to root a
>>detactment of scorpions off an objective in the woods,
>
>Like I said, the eldar will be able to take the weak side and hold out on
>the strong side. I dont' think you can count on objectives. The real
>decider will be the break points for the eldar. With the medics, that will
>be the make or break point.
>
>>I was relying on the titans to do this (kill shooty stuff).
>
>Titans dont' have enough firepower. Sure a bunch of one-shots will hurt,
>but you will most likely lose one to warlocks before the first fire phase.


And unless the Phantoms die before they fire, I wouldn't count on those
titans being around in the second turn...


>
>I really think it will come down to who scores the most points in the
>bloodbath. The more I think about it, the more I think at 6000 pts so much
>stuff will get broken that it will be a tie. Especially with most of the
>forces concentrated on half the board.


Nah, I reckon if you take a CC army against the Eldar you're in a whole
world of trouble...

Agro

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>Temp
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Received on Thu Mar 20 1997 - 12:51:49 UTC