Re: [Epic] [E40K] Squats -- After Review:

From: Aaron P Teske <Mithramuse+_at_...>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:28:51 -0400 (EDT)

Excerpts from Epic: 9-Jun-97 Re: [Epic] [E40K] Squats --.. by Alan
Brain_at_....
> Reasoning/Assumptions:
> a) That in 40K Squats won't change a great deal from the current version
> when the Squat Codex comes out.

Probably right. (Now, if I'd only brought Rogue Trader with me... <sigh>)

> b) That 40K rather than SM2 is the "One True Way" that E40K must try to
> approximate.

Unfortunate, but true.

> c) That an absolute minimum of special rules be added, hopefully none.

Yes... but if you've read through most of my posts and the responses,
many if not all of the special rules have vanished. (Though I still
like making the Thunderfire Cannon immobile, but as I pointed out that's
not changing anything.)

> d) That some simplification is needed: As a guide, look at the Imperial
> Super Heavy Tank.

Eh. I agree with you in principle, but you should also keep in mind
that the Imperial army had *way* more trrop types than *any* other army.
 Even if you were just looking at one side of the Imperial Army (Marines
vs. Guard), there were more troop types than any other race. They
*needed* the simplefication.

Squats, on the other hand, had the smallest army list in the game. They
don't really need it.

> 1. Basic Squat Stats
> Equal to an Ork Boy + Stubborn.

Yup.

>The 40K Squat is a little better at HTH
> combat than an Ork, but grossly inferior to an SM. (Correct me if I'm
> wrong).

I don't think they're grossly inferior (both WS 4) but the armour save
is a lot better for the Marine -- and they do get those in CC.

> 2. Thunderers
> Heavy Weapons. That's all.

I can agree with this, actually; as much as I like my heavy-duty
Thunderers, keeping them as per other heavies is probably a good thing.
+7 points for the upgrade?

> 3. SHVs
> Keep them as Leviathan variants. For one thing, that's what they are. I
> know a lot of people would like to see special rules, but the concept
> of:
>
> Leviathan = Chassis + Transport(8) + MegaCannon
> Cyclops = Chassis + Hvy Barrage + Death Ray
> Colossus = Chassis + Hvy Barrage + MegaCannon + Artillery
>
> seems to me to be both accurate and simple. As well as providing a fair
> variety of weapons choices.

Here, I strongly disagree. You said look at the Imperial tanks. Fine.
However, their roles were never that different to begin with; you had
the ones that shot a lot (with long & shorter range varients) and the
ones with massive one-shot power. But then flip the pages a bit more...
the Imperium also has the Ordinatus SHVs, all its Titans, and the
Leviathan itself. If the Colossus & Cyclops were as simple as varients
on the Leviathan, why couldn't the Techpriests pull 'em off?

As I've said before, the Colossus is a *far* superior fighting machine
to the Leviathan, as well. And the Cyclops, while closer to the
Leviathan in general firepower (weaker, in fact), has the Hellfury
Cannon. If you keep 'em seperate, then we've got a list of five SHVs so
far. (3 Chassis, Overlord, Land Train.) Yes, that's more than any
other race. But you also need to keep in mind that the Squats don't
have any kind of normal tank -- the SHVs are their specialty. Let 'em
keep 'em.

Hrm, six. Forgot the Hellbore, but that's not a very serious addition
anyway. (How many Squat players have one? Er, besides me.... ^_^;;; )

> 4. Fliers
> This is a mess. But after seeing the pros and cons written by various
> people, the Rocket-Propelled Zeppelin, ie Flier Overlord, is looking
> better and better to me. Just from a Game Balance perspective.

Um. I'm *really* not sure on that one, either. With an Intercept value
of 1, as you proposed, they'd drop like flies, and apart from that the
Squats don't need a bomber, they need something to drive away bombers
from their front lines. (ie, Thunderfires -- either of our versions --
won't cut it.)

>The
> Gyrocopter may or may not be counted as a flier as well, but the complex
> rules re Gasbags that have been proposed seem to be worse even
> than the SM2 rules. Keep It Simple, Stupid!

How so? (Worse than SM2, not KISS.) If we take Mark's suggestion to
change 2-6 to +0 damage, but one taken as normal, while increasing the
DC to 8, the only special rule on the Overlord is the height the thing
flies at (add 15cm to range, no assault). Sure, seeing the battlefield
is unusual, but you can just call it "skimmer on permanent pop-up." And
Drift doesn't count as a special rule; that wasn't very serious on my
part, anyway.

> Probably the best idea is that we do this as a 3-step process:
> 1. Agree on the Organisation (that's the easy bit)

Probably, yeah. I want to take another look at your general list (the
layout of the army seems to have been neglected in the discussion) but
it was better than mine. I was trying to re-create the Brotherhood as
one detachment; I forgot that is should really be three detachments.
<hangs head in woe>

> 2. Agree on the stats of the individual units

Mostly agreed upon, apparently. Incidentally, why *did* you give Thudd
Guns 2 FP instead of a barrage? That's one that's still undecided....

> 3. Agree on the cost.

<nod>

> Finally, remember that the good is the enemy of the best. There's a lot
> of Squat players out there who want a Canonical set of Squat rules for
> E40K. An OK set that's simple and produced quickly is better than the
> Perfect Rule-For-All-Occassions one that takes 3 years of bickering to
> get absoultely right.

I'd actually say that we're quite close to a canonical list; the points
of contension right now are:
1) Thunderers (which will, I b'lieve, end up as standard heavies)
2) Flyers (involving Overlords & 'copters)

Issues that haven't been resolved/discussed at all:
1) Specific stats for:
  - gyrocopter (see above)
  - all the SHVs, barring the Lev.
  - Thunderfire Cannon
  - Thudd Gun/Light artillery (barrage vs. 2 FP)
  - Goliath (Hvy. Barrage vs. Mega-Cannon)
  - Tunnelers (as in 1st or 2nd edition Epic?)

OK, so that's most of the Squats list. Still, versions are out there
for all of the above, so it's not like we're discussing these blind.

2) Rules for tunnelers:
  - as Drop pods (has established rules, but too random IMO)
  - as in 1st edition (has precedent, but no comments from anyone that
I've heard.)

> OK, people?

Something like that. ^_^

                    Aaron Teske
                    Mithramuse+_at_...
                    Squat Leader, Den'Len Fetch
Received on Mon Jun 09 1997 - 03:28:51 UTC