RE: [Epic] -Chaos- Tactic Critique

From: Miller, Chris <CMiller_at_...>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:47:39 -0500

> One of the biggest shocks I ever got as a chaos player
>was facing off against a Space Wolf/Ravenwing/TL army where my
>opponent had a reaver group and armed 1 or 2 of them with 2 melta
>cannons (25cm, 3+ hits, -4 save mod). He then positioned those
>reavers where he thought I'd try to charge him... having never
>really seen melta cannons in action before, I got too close...
>Lost a Lord of Change to those damn titans (which were surrounded
>by grey hunters & wolf guard termies). Just when I was thinking,
>"hey, he doesn't have psychics, what do I have to worry about?"

-----> Yeah, one of my Warlords has 2 meltas,a turbo-laser destructor,
and Vulcan Mega-Bolter. Seemed to fit with the Dragon head I put on him.
All short-ranged?-you bet, and if someone is fool enough to get close to
him, they are toast. The TL is a 75cm wpn, so he has a little range, but
this way I don't mind charging him for a turn or two, as people tend to
clear
out of the way. He's hell on infantry, shields, tanks, you name it. He's
normally covered by the Warlord with the big cannon for a head, a
missile launcher, volcano cannon, and a fire control center (forget
other
weapon momentarily). Unfortunately, they're imperial, and, more
unhappily,
the head cannon etc is kind of missing in e40K, so not sure how I'm
going to use him.
>
>> >> I don't think it was that much faster, either. Maybe a little faster,
>> >
>> > 30cm compared to 20cm. Plus it was a SHV, so it wasn't
>> >likely to get bogged down in CC (not that anyone in their right
>> >minds would have assaulted 10 Beasts marching forward).
>>
>> ----> That SHV was probably it's most important trait. Let's you get
>> your riff-raff past the other guys riff-raff. The 30 cm vs 20 cm charge
>> didn't impress me that much, but adding on the SHV status does
>> help.
>
> Hey! My Beasts of Nurgle are NOT riff-raff!
>
> I know 30cm vs 20cm isn't impressive, but it is a
>bonus and you don't have to worry about the guys inside
>getting shot up on the way in (just have to keep the tower
>alive).

----> Well, you were rippin' my Khorne guys, and THEY have a 30 cm
charge...easier to kill, but they would be 3 seperate targets and
100 fewer points... : )

(are transporting Beasts of Nurgle in it? I thought you'd send
marines or that hopelessly slow GUO)

>
>> >> I managed ,
>> >> once, to have some grey knights teleport down on target to surround
>> >> a bloodthirster - "allright, I'm finally gonna kick a 'thirster's
>> >> behind in
>> >> CC." Then he played the "growth"card.
>> >
>> > Heh. I love doing that. But then, what were you attacking
>> >a Bloodthirster (one of the most useless GDs) with Grey Knights
>> >for anyway? GK are really only well-spent trying to kill Magnus
>> >or Mortartion.
>>
>> -----> Well, if you want Khorne troops, you get a bloodthirster, a
>> LOB, or Angron.
>
> LoB! LoB! LoB!!!
>
> Sorry. I love that thing. Never really does a whole lot,
>but I like it anyway. Now if I could only getting around to
>painting up that second one...

-----> The Lord of Battles was one of the first Chaos units I bought.
It's been used in every battle I've played, and almost every one
my opponent has played - he bought into Tzeentch more than
Khorne, so he uses mine, along with my cannons.
        I always wished it did a little more - maybe a transport
capability, but it does soak up a lot of fire, and with that small
titan diagram, a hit sometimes turns into a miss - don't even
need to use a card...still one of my favorites. Once my friend finally
shook his habit of knocking it over and snapping off the wheels,
I even relaxed a little. (He used to do the same thing to my
T-Bolts in battletech - some kind of knack for breaking my
mini's)
>> I also took
>> a bloodthirster a lot, just because the enemy is usually more than
>
> I used to use the thirster all the time, but then at
>some point I realized it never actually KILLED anything. Maybe
>a stand or two, but the enemy could usually run away. I still
>take one if I need more than 5 khorne minion cards.

I usually go LOB, Angron if I'm taking the marines, and a B-thirster
otherwise. I have gotten in some licks with one - smoked an avatar
once (with card help), but they also tend to attract more shots than
they probably should. It's hard to say - if they soak up enough shots
that they die, they seem ineffective, yet if they weren't shot at, what
would they do. I prefer that much of my opponents fire go to the
"cardable" units, but is annoying that these primo units don't do
more offensively...
>
>> >> I agree doomwings were the best of the Tzeentch engines, but
>> >> the Khorne units included numerous shots, some with template
>> >> weapons, some which fired blast markers (rare for chaos), some
>> >> transport ability, a generally high CAF, and the property of getting
>> >> better whenever you were ahead on VP's.
>> >
>> > And were 3 for 300 points, 3 VPs for killing 2. For
>> >killing 2 really big targets with a 2+ armor save. 2 really
>> >big targets with (at best) 50cm range weapons, that by
>> >definition has to get close to the enemy to do anything. 2
>> >really big targets that you can't play chaos cards on, and
>> >thus are easily swarmed by bikes. There's no way those guys
>> >were even remotely useful.
>>
>> ----> 50cm range weapons for Chaos are pretty good. How many of
>> their things have no shots at all or a piddly 15cm range ?
>
> Unfortunately, a tank with 50cm weapons is (most likely)
>going to get hit but other, longer-ranged tanks before it gets
>close enough to use those guns. And most of the khorne engine
>weapons were 25cm.
>
> The engines can be useful if there's heavy cover (lots
>of buildings, for instance), but then you're in even more danger
>of getting swarmed by bikes/assault troops.

----> With the deathdealers, it was usually a shell game - "which one
is carying the troops?" The cauldrons were usually gone before
they could do much, but some of those gun heavy units had
multiple 50 cm weapons. Against land raiders or Dev marines,
I wouldn't expect much, but they had a place. We had big enough
battles usually that the other guy was worried more about titans
>etc than "those goofy little skull-tanks" as was put one time.
>> Marines
>> were 50cm too. How many Chaos weapons, other than titan guns,
>> get a range over 50cm?
>
> Well, the marine equipment - Land Raiders, tarantulas,
>etc generally has a 50-75cm range. But I learned early on
>that Chaos just wasn't meant to shoot. If you get into a
>shooting match with the enemy, you're going to lose. When I
>started playing, I faced the eldar almost exclusively (yeah,
>I lost a lot) and learned to fear those damn eldar lascannons
>(75cm, 4+ hits, -2 save mod). Never mind the exarchs, pulsars,
>tempests (oy!), etc etc. Eventually I wisened up, stopped
>taking more than a few essential tanks/guns, and loaded up on
>the daemons, marines, and CC guys. I did a lot better that
>way.

-----> I didn't take too many land raiders - had a unit of Nurgle and
a unit for Khorne. Didin't mess with too much of the other marine stuff
for the same reason I didn't build blood axes for my orks - I have
2 land raider companies, plus lots of smaller units. I get enough
land raiders with my impies. For Chaos, I wnat the Chaos units -
I took a few, to go with the rest of my marines (heck, I made some
Rhinos for Nurgle and Khorne too, and a unit of Land speeders and
a unit of bikes) but I didn't want to turn them into the main force of
my
 army (so no T-hawks, Thudd guns, etc. ) I used the dreadnoughts
just because I thought they fit (but before you say it - yes, they
sucked. All the Dreads sucked in SM/TL. That's one of the changes
> I'm happy about in E40K)
        And against Eldar, all I can say is if you manage a draw,
that's as good as a win against any other race (Tempests, yech-
don't get me started)
>> With Chaos, more than any other race, I tend to just take what
>> I like. I also happen to like the banelord,
>
> !!! more useless than the daemon engines, IMHO.
----> OK, I'll assume there's an explanation for that.
(My view - more stuff than a regular warlord for the same price
with the penalty of being on advance/charge only. Worth it
to me...besides, it came out with a damn nice paint job,
which matters at least as much as the game stats.
The first battle he fought in, though, I was playing orks
and my friend was using him - My Bad Moonz Mega-Gargant
blew him into scrap the first turn. I was kinda upset, but it
was a very satsfying game for me...
>
>> and the 3 or 4 converted
>> warlords
>> with the heads & tails, etc. and adding a few titans to the chaos side
>> tends to even them up with the other races real quick
>
> That was fine until TL and everyone else got
>battlegroups... at that point I just couldn't see the point
>in paying 500 for a reaver when my opponent was only paying
>333 points.
----> The trick is know your opponent - specifically how many
titans he has. A lot of the guys around here didn't have 3 titans
of one kind, and *no* those legos cannot stand in for a Warlord...
Some people will even be gracious enough to let Chaos take
titan groups, especially if you're doing a Horus Heresy type
battle (which can be anytime you're fighting imperials...)
>
>> One other thing - have you done much with Chaos in E40K? I
>> started Chaos and Eldar in SM/TL, then went mostly Imperial. I spent
>> most of the last year or so of it with orks. I haven't tried E40K Chaos
>> yet, and no cards would be a major change on the surface. How's
>> it working really?
>
> Still very unexperienced, and still getting used
>to the whole 'combined tactics' mindset. Without the cards
>it's not quite as fun but I still love the variety of troops
>that are available.
>
> On the whole, I'd have to say that Chaos occupies
>basically the same niche it did in SM/TL - kind of a hybrid
>close combat/marine army weighted on the close combat side.
>The 'nids can still out fight you and the imps & eldar can
>still out-shoot you. But the army list is very flexible
>(probably the most flexible) and there's a lot you can do
>with it. Overall I've been doing OK, but like I said I'm
>still in the process of adopting to the new system (this
>whole 'maneuvering' concept is still foreign to me =). I
>also want to experiment more with the armies (so far I've
>tried taking mostly balanced forces), but unfortunately I
>don't get to play that often... *sigh*...
>
>Scott
>shupes_at_...
----> I undertook an intensive study of the E40K Chaos list
over the weekend, and I noticed a couple of things:

1) Slaanesh beast rders look to be a lot more effective
in this version.
2) Juggers are an upgrade but not a unit - I guess I'd
call 'em a demon with cavalry and rampage. Anyone willing
to buy "save" or "assault" ?
3) Same with Discs - upgrades but not units. What did we
 come up with? Demon - cavalry, skimmer?
4) Oh great. No marine speeders for chaos - I know why
from the 40K Codex, I was just hoping they'd overlook
it. Guess they get converted to blood angels...
5) What's up with those greater demons? Seem kinda
weak to me "stubborn" for a KOS? "save" is OK,
and psyker is OK, but couldn't they do better than that?
I almost think treating them as some kind of War engine
would be better...

Chris Miller
Received on Mon Jul 28 1997 - 15:47:39 UTC