Re: [NetEpic ML] Titan CC

From: Peter Ramos <primarch_at_...>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:58:45 -0500

Hi!

Albert Farr� Benet wrote:

> I didn't say it's impossible to win against Chaos. What I've said is that,
> with good Chaos cards, Chaos is nearly impossible to win. If you don't
> believe, just do a little try: play a small (4k-6k) against Chaos (with SM
> for example), let him choose his Chaos cards (without you knowing which ones
> has him) and you'll see.
> OK, now you can expect the worst. You know that you can only use your Grey
> Knights once, and against one Greater demon ( and if you win the
> initiative). An Invisibility card on the greater demon will rest themselves
> helpless from shots in Advance fire;
> You have two choices: let them die (Now you've lost 400 points) or wait for
> himto use the card to save the demon in a shooting. But you can be waiting
> all time, because that's his game. Chaos MUST be won by the end of third
> turn or you DO have a problem (So, you lose the game).
> Now, what about killing a whole detachment of termies/veterans with the help
> of flatulence and a group of medium/good CC fighters(apart from cultists,
> are there bad Chaos CC fighters)? and so on...

I have played, literally, hundreds of games at the points interval you
suggest (4-6k). I always bring grey knights as you suggest, but I do NOT
do what everyone does with them which is the mad
"teleport-to-the-demon-and-kill-it-in-close-combat" tactic. That is not
the way to go, I lose 4VP's he loses 3VP's, not a smart move. I use it
to assert a "radius of deterrance". The grey knights form the center,
they are backed by medics and librarians. As support devastators and
perhpass one detachment of assault troops in reserve. I DO NOT go
looking for the chaos player, I make him come looking for me, this means
whatever little tricks he has, with his kick-ass deck of cards he can't
use UNTIL he closes the killing ground. Now, the grey knights have a
35cm range radius, frm which any demon comes in I shoot at it, he maay
save but it costs him two cards, with 8 attack dice, hitting on 4+, more
than makes up for for the -1 modifier. Now the catch is, my radius is
35cm, most chaos powers are 25cm, can you see what I'm getting at now?
You can have the great hand on earth, they are rendered useless since
you MUST bridge the gap to come within range. I do NOT go rushing
accross the board in rhinos or thunderhawks to take objectives. I take
those close to me, those that obligate the chaos player to walk the
farthest. Flatulence and other powers cause me no fear, since he must
come to me to use them. Use termies, nope, I'm not fighting a close
combat game I fight a shooting game, so expect devastator companies,
lots of them. Note that my grey kinight nodels are roughly 1000 points
each, with three to four depending on points with some to space for
support like tarantulas (robotic brain, no fear, no snap fire penalty!)
and whirlwinds, cheap barrages to kill troops.

Even, if I cede you more objectives than I am willing to take, due to my
defensive posture, you MUST come and engage me to win, thats when I hit
you with my reserve and dump one detachment here or there via bikes or
thunderhawks to the objectives with the least resistance (which will be
the case since to inflict casualties on my defense you must attack in
force otherwise I shoot you to peices peicemeal.

So you see, your logic on how things go about depends on the strategy of
the marine player, if he is like most he tries to go toe to toe in close
combat or wastes his grey knights using teleport. If you do that, chaos
will kick your butt almost every time, but I dont play like that. I make
chaos player my game because I exploit the one trait all chaos cards
have in common regardless of power, your unit must be close to use them.
Remember only troops can use chaos cards not vehicles, troops are slow,
so I play on chaos's big disadvantage-speed. Chaos counts on me meeting
him half way, I do no such thing. If they happen to get too close to my
defensive nodes I let lose bikes or assault troops conveniently behind
my defensive line to attack and delay them, they are dead of course, but
so are the attackers in advance phase with clean up fire.

Also at the heart of the defensive node is the grey knight its psy-save,
while it cannot prevent chaos attack that single out other troops, but
it does wonders against template attack spells which in order to get at
my non-grey knight troops it may overlap and hit grey knights, thus I
attempt psy-saves and thwart the whole attack. This means I pack my
troops close together, true, but I play on another chaos weakness, lack
of good reliable artillery, cannon of khorne non-withstanding.

This defense is years old, it can be defeated by a good chaos player,
but his cards won't do it for him (hehe, or course I know what to do the
other way around too!).

Actually the marines are my number one choice followed by eldar in
defeating chaos.

> We've calculated that every Chaos card has a potencial to earn Chaos player
> (if good played) beetwen 1 and 4 points plus 5 more if there's also the
> possibility to grab an objective.
> And remember that low-point vitory condition for games <6k
>
> If this was a 5k game he'll probably go losing in first turn (as any Chaos
> player) but in second or third turn he'll get you. Your rtesources are too
> small to face the amount of looses they make to you. Yet, this goes for
> marines, eldars, ... and small numbers armies, but the problem is the same
> for big numbers armies, because it means low morale (except for Tyranids)
> and then Chaos strategy turns to "if I can rout a whole detachment charging
> one stand, I'll go for the most of them I can reach".

Chaos has a very low potential for first turn blow-outs amongst
experienced players, marines are number one in that department. In a
6000 point game you need 55 points to win, given 8 objectives (40Vp's)
chaos still needs to get another 15VP's, given my defense posture they
dont have a prayer of accomplishing this in one turn and even in two is
low, because the bulk of the army is still walk accross the killing zone.

Also, you seem to assume that with chaos will always secure an objective
with its cards when it chooses too. Nothing further from the truth. Let
me introduce you to what I call the "testudo" (turtoise) formation. To
acheive it one detachment is enough. Simply put you place a the stands
in a chain around the objective forming a circle. In the center you
place one unit atop the objective counter. The space between the ring
and the center figure is small so even jump pack troops would be less
than 1cm from the outer ring and thus in close combat with the close
models NOT the one sitting on the objective. You can engage, use chaos
cards and literally wipe the floor with the ring of defenders, in the
end that unengagable lone unit on the objective counter keeps it for
another turn, sure you can shoot it and kill it, but so can I your
victorious assaulters, and guess what? Claimin objectives happens in the
end phase, even if we mutually annihialted each other, I was there first
the previous turn so its still mine! Many a game lost for chaos with this.

> But it's a perfect end-of-combat phase objective grabber. Which distance
> does it appear? we assume coherency distance is enough. As it appears
> magicaly it would be possible to appear behind enemy lines? I think so. Nah,
> it's not a bad power but as other powers, let's you scratch some VP, that
> let you win in the end.

Thats an excellent use, the only one I have seen it used for since
anything else is a waste, but you assume no follow up advance fire will
not kill that one duplicate, thats a big assaumption, especially with
the firepower heavy game I play. A lot of chaos power give you this last
grab tactic, but it only works if:

1. I was foolish enough to engage in close combat with anything more
than a detachment. You'll take it, but you get just that, the objective,
my detachment forms a big company safetly tucked away in my grey-knight
defense node, without those points from the company you still dont get
enough to win.
2. I have no advance "clean-up" firepower to kill these last grabbers,
since objectives are taken in the end phase, at the worst it will be
nobodies, at teh best it is still mine.

> So, you cannot let anything come close to titans and praetorians, for even
> that lonely bloodletter with that surviving Chaos cultist is a real threat.
> Normally you won't have enough firepower to wipe out all targets. Well, you
> can always bring an Imperator playing 5k game and let the other player
> scream "Cheeeeeeese!" all afternoon. You won't also win, but...

Again, what threat, suppose that lonely unit on the objective does use
cards. What does he accomplish? Unless there are more of his buddies to
follow up he will not keep that objective regardless of what he uses
next (having gone invisible the previous turn), if lucky he break a
support card, good trade for those 5 VP and that objective. An
experience chaos player will use the cards where the highest yield lays,
to do so to one model standing atop an objective surrounded by enemy
units in force, is not good yield. If he has buddies close by, why would
I bother to assault it? I'm in no hurry, I'm busy shooting you!

>
> Not with small armies. You don't have enough troops and firepower. Not with
> big armies, you have too much cannon fodder to hide, they'll get one stand
> of each unit and the rest of your troops will flee.

You keep mentioning not enough troops, count how may troops I can make
in my defensive nodels. Lets see 4000 point game. I bring 2 devastator
companies (2000 points), two grey knight detachments (800), two medics
(100), assault company (750), two librarians (200) and some bikes. Each
node has one medic, one librarian, two devastators detachments and one
reserve of assaults. This still leaves two devastator detachments, bikes
and assaults for a third reserve force. This force has has over 100
models, outnumbered? Perhaps, but not by much (if at all), chaos is no
position to play the attrition game with me with this force. Play 6000,
another node and the rest dumped in tarantulas and whirlwinds.

I dont have heavy firepwoer you say, yes, thats the point. I am after
you infantry, without it chaos loses period. Actually the more you tie
up in titans and demon engines with my infantry heavy force, the easier
it is for me to win, because I ignore those targets and there is less
infantry on the chaos side to kill.

Small is relative. In my experience, you fare much better with infantry
heavy forces than the usual "big gun" armies most play. You have to kill
a LOT more infantry to get those points, it takes time, in that time my
devastators will kill you far away infantry. Any advance fast troops you
have will be pinned down by sacrifical close combat troops, giving me
more time.

> Well remember those Grey Knights worth 4VP? They found there was no Big One
> (telekineticed far inside those nearer woods ) but a lot of shots.

I know thats why I teleport them inside defense nodes, whats cool is my
opponents (before they get to know me better of course), always try to
defend their demons with a whole host of ploys, only to see I have no
intention of close assauting them, their defensive/deterrant value is
much more awesome. Yup, I never forget they are 4VP's, those which chaos
rarely ever gets!

> But it does affect knights and SH tanks. I think that a SH alone can grab 2
> VP in one turn easily.

True, but again you must be close enough to use it, that is not always a
given. An opponent who has not seriously hurt chaos in turn one and turn
two, loses period! T

> The matter is no there's ONE game spoiler, but the combined effect of all of
> them might be. If you assume 2 VP for everycard and imagine 5 f them get
> good results, Chaos has 10VP more. On a smaller game (45-55 VP) this places
> Chaos close to victory, because your opponent has lost an important part of
> his army (15 -20%) and possibly his best Chaos fighters.
> I know it's difficult to rate their effect, but I think that early loses due
> to Chaos cards are heavily paid in the end.

That is the big IF. I dont tend to lose any VP's in the first turn,
because I stay one my side of the board, there is no gain for me to grab
an objective that gets overrun by close combat, then I yield the
objectives plus my troops. I rather let you have the objective and shoot
you up, as I said earlier, even in small games you have to break my
companies to win.

> Well that's a good choice to start with, if you are playing 8k+ but not for
> a smaller game, wwere you won't use more than 6 warmachines and one titan.
> In a smaller game you'll try to get lots of people to fight, you cannot buy
> a Banelord because you won't be able to take objectives. So my average of
> 1000 - 1250 will stay. Obviously, with Titans it will rise but I'm talking
> of smaller games, which tend to be the most common. Still the problem is in
> small games not big games.

Still, the rule of 3 support cards to one demon stands even in small
games. Even with a minimum card selection and modest units of the
100-150 range that is a spread of 600-750, not cheap at all.

> Well, then try to play a game against a good Chaos player with the
> conditions I stated before. Or better, play a dozen games with this
> conditions. I assume that player quality odds are 50/50

hehe, as they say been there done that. Playing for or against chaos is
perhaps the combination I have played the most, against all armies,
experienced and inexperienced, you assumption just doesn't hold, because
you assume certain "sterotypical" game tactics on the marines part. I
bet you have never seen the "defense node" style of play against chaos,
just look it over, or better yet play it, give the chaos player all his
wonderful cards, if he plays in the "stereotypical" chaos fashion he is
dead meat. Chaos must play a more manueverable game using transports to
cope with this, even then its no easy push, games get real close (as
they should be) and a lot of fun.

>
> It's easy, if he wins all games it means that there is a combination of
> Chaos Cards that leads to victory, if so, I'm right and the only hope to win
> Chaos is bad luck on Chaos Player drawing cards

> If he wins most of the games, then Chaos is not invincible but Chaos cards
> are unbalancing because make victory easier.
>
> If there's a draw or almost a draw, You're right and you can take this
> message and strip it, tear it, burn it, give it to your dog (or even worst,
> to a baby), or cut it, or... (not necessary in this this order)
>
> If you win most or all the games, me and Chaos player will leave this list,
> throw our miniatures very far and start a new life as slug breeders (or
> something alike) ;)

Well remembering the many games against chaos playing against people
with the same years of experience and knowledge of the games the split
is 60% me, 40% my opponents. Had I stayed in NY longer it would have
even out to 50%-50% since that is where my best opponent to date
resides, a game invloving chaos on either side were extremely commonly
as close to 1 out of every two games.

Trust me, I heard it all as it pertains to chaos, from those who support
your view to those who say chaos are too weak in comparison to other
armies. Heck Albert, its not uncommon for me in the past to let a player
PICK out the chaos cards he desires, still doesn't change the outcome
(although to be fair these guys are less experienced than me).

> Yes, but two points: support cards cost the same with and without cards, and
> don't forget morale aspects of a greater demon.
> But you may be right (I'm too lazy to apply cost formulas, I've got plenty
> of them at University (:-( ).
> Actually I'm against the use of any free card other than those that those
> not have impact on the game. Why should eldar get 4 stands for free? This is
> not fair, I mean, obviously every army has some benefits that don't have
> others but...FREE? I think this does not help the game balance.

This would be another topic, but the eldar free cards hardly makes much
of a difference either, at least to me.

> Ooops! I extended myself a bit too much again. I'm sorry.

Your kidding me? I love to talk about this stuff. I rarely get to invest
some time talking about stuff like this. I like to hear the "other half"
of the story. How do you think you can better your game if not for
discussions for this? How do you think I come up with all these old
counter ploys? Years of talking to gamers like you with different points
of view. Like I have said before. you get really good at epic, not so
much by how many games you play, but how many different people you play
against. I have moved about 8 times in the last decade and have lived
and played in about that many states, all different groups and styles,
you learn a lot. The one thing you realize is nothing is to good to be
beaten with a good plan.

Thanks for the chat, keep them coming longer and longer!!!

Peter
Received on Thu Mar 08 2001 - 01:58:45 UTC