Re: [Epic] Titans and CC (a new theory...) LONG

From: Brett Hollindale <agro_at_...>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:04:38 GMT

At 08:49 AM 7/3/97 -0500, Chad wrote:
>
>
>
>On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Brett Hollindale wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Every other figure's base counts as part of the model. (Otherwise infantry
>> stands could never enter CC with each other as it is impossible to make
>> "model to model" contact. Ditto Daemons, Knights, literally anything with a
>> base...) Furthermore, when measuring range for a troop stand, you measure
>> from the edge of the base to the edge of the base (TL page 28), so the base
>> sounds like "part of the model" to me...
>>
>
>May I suggest that you are misreading the rules
>
>Take a look at the Armies of the Epic Battlefield, page 15. There:
>"Infantry in Epic comes in 'stands' of five individual trooper models,
>representing a squad or other small fighting unit." I would suggest that a
>"stand" is in this case considered a "model". The rest of the paragraph
>suggests the same as all references are to a "stand" from then on. It
>would seem that you put five models on a base and that this is then
>considered a "stand" in the case of infantry.
>
>I get the same idea from the rest of the descriptions of troop types.
>They talk about squads being put on infantry bases as if this is now a
>model itself.
>
>
>> Further evidence of the "enemy nature" of the titan's base is the ability of
>> a titan to "sweep forward" and voluntarily engage anything in contact with
>> their base. (TL page 33) Why not anything within such and such a distance
>> of the titan? What is so special about the base? I figure it must be
>> because the base is "part of the model" (sorry to labour the obvious!)
>>
>
>Why all the fluff text to explain away a normal ability? I would have
>thought that if the vehicles having to move into contact with the feet was
>the exception to the rule it would have gotten all the fluff text.


Well, they got their fair share...


>Instead it is all of the rest that seems to be treated as the exception.
>
>> And of course the IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that the titan's base **IS** part of
>> the titan is given by the fact that skimmers, flyers and jump troops only
>> have to touch the titan's base to fight a CC with the titan.
>>
>
>Irrefutable evidence that this is an exception perhaps. ;-)
>
>> (I know I could have used this evidence first, but I play EPIC - I am a
>> sadist at heart...)
>>
>>
>>
>> For those who don't have TL handy let me quote page 33 "Titans and Gargants
>> in Close Combat":
>>
>> In order to fight against a Titan or Gargant in close combat, vehicles,
>> SHV's, and troop stands must move into contact with the model itself,
>> usually moving so that they touch the models feet (or equivalent).
>>
>
>"must move into contact with the model itself, usually moving so that they
>touch the models feet"
>
>Seems pretty clear. Even if in other cases the base is considered part of
>the "model", in this case it is clearly not. To say that again: even if
>in every other case the base is considered part of the model (as in a
>"stand") it would seem that in the case of Titans that it is not.


Why? All it says is what you have to do to CC the titan, it doesn't go any
further. In fact the fact that it is mentioned at all should suggest that
this course of action might not be as simple as it sounds...


>
>Besides, I really don't think that your theory would help defend Titans
>against ground attacks. You can get something like 6 stands in contact
>with a Warlord. Put a CC head on him and CML and he will eat them,
>especially if there is another Titan with CML or a weapon head to support.
>The real threat (IMHO) is from eldar jetbikes and this theory does nothing
>for them.


No, they covered that with the new "anyone can shoot skimmers in CC" rule.

And for the record, I don't actually have any trouble defending titans in
CC, I'm just looking at the rules and wondering why they are the way they
are...



>
>> A Titan is able to lean forward, sweeping the ground to its front and side.
>> To represent this a Titan can always opt to fight a close combat with models
>> in contact with its base (if it has one), even if the enemy is not actually
>> touching the Titan's feet.
>>
>
>seems to be a noted exception here.
>
>> Enemy models that can fly or leap over large distances can also fight if
>> they are touching the Titan's base - they don't need to be touching the
>> Titan's feet. This applies to skimmers, flyers and jump pack equipped
troups.
>>
>
>again, they can fly/leap large distances and so would be an exception.
>But, to what? If the normal rule is that you could enter CC at the base
>then why not just say "they follow the normal rules and may enter CC with
>a titan by touching its base."
>
>
>> When two Titan's or gargants fight each other it is sufficient to move both
>> models so that their bases are touching. Both can then fight.
>>
>
>"it is sufficient" seems to indicate that this is an exception also.
>


Perhaps it means that it wont be necessary to engage the titan's feet?


>> end quote
>>
>> >From the fact that they mention it at all, it seems fair to assume that GW
>> intended something out of the ordinary for titans and gargants in CC.
>> Remember that these rules we are discussing come from the rule set designed
>> to make titans more powerful (and thereby more attractive to the model
>> buying public).
>>
>
>They did mention the out of the ordinary, they show us that Titans may
>attack critters that are only
>touching there base (they even give a "fluff text" explanation to explain
>this ability) and the ability of flyer/skimmers to attack Titans while
>only touching the base (again with the fluff text).
>
>Make them more powerful how? They introduced two new Titan types. The
>only rule "change" was the void shield thing. I might add that they
>stated that this was so and drew our attention to it. Why wouldn't they
>have done that with the CC thing if it was a change?


You're not suggesting that the bit on "titan's in CC" isn't a change are
you? How much more obvious could they have made it?


>
>
>Chad
>
>


That's an exceptional number of exceptions Chad.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? (The simplest solution is usually the best)

How about the possibility that the only "exception" is explicitly stated -
that being that as distinct from every other model, in order to CC a titan
some troop types must contact the feet.

Of course it could be that titan bases are the only bases that aren't part
of the model, it could be that titans are the only troops able to CC nearby
troops not in contact with themselves, it could be that skimmers etc are
another exception to the CC rules, it could be that even if the base IS part
of the model titan's are an exception to the pinning rules, of course two
titans fighting would be another "exception", (did I miss any?)

For my money, "the simplest solution is usually the best"

Agro
Received on Fri Mar 07 1997 - 15:04:38 UTC