Re: [Epic] -Chaos- Tactic Critique

From: Scott Shupe <shupes_at_...>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:38:07 -0400

Miller, Chris wrote:
>
[Plague Tower]
> > Hey! My Beasts of Nurgle are NOT riff-raff!
> >
> > I know 30cm vs 20cm isn't impressive, but it is a
> >bonus and you don't have to worry about the guys inside
> >getting shot up on the way in (just have to keep the tower
> >alive).
>
> ----> Well, you were rippin' my Khorne guys, and THEY have a 30 cm
> charge...easier to kill, but they would be 3 seperate targets and
> 100 fewer points... : )
>
> (are transporting Beasts of Nurgle in it? I thought you'd send
> marines or that hopelessly slow GUO)

        Marines have plenty of their own transports, sticking
them in the PT would be fairly silly. Usually I'd fill it up
with 5 beasts, 5 plague bearers, and either Mortarion or a GUO
depending on what I have in my army. The nurgle demons get a
lot out of being transported since they're normally slow slow
slow and they don't have any neat-o regeneration or splitting
powers to protect them from getting shot up on the way in.

> -----> The Lord of Battles was one of the first Chaos units I bought.
> It's been used in every battle I've played, and almost every one
> my opponent has played - he bought into Tzeentch more than
> Khorne, so he uses mine, along with my cannons.
> I always wished it did a little more - maybe a transport
> capability, but it does soak up a lot of fire,

        Yep. Definitely worth the 500 points, even if it
doesn't kill a whole lot. Plus, he lets me take Bloodletters,
Flesh Hounds, and Cannons without forcing Angron or a Blood
thirster on my army...

> > I used to use the thirster all the time, but then at
> >some point I realized it never actually KILLED anything. Maybe
> >a stand or two, but the enemy could usually run away. I still
> >take one if I need more than 5 khorne minion cards.
>
> I usually go LOB, Angron if I'm taking the marines, and a B-thirster
> otherwise. I have gotten in some licks with one - smoked an avatar
> once (with card help),

        Hmmm... that's pretty dicey, what with the Avatar's
2+ save and psychic CC hits...

> but they also tend to attract more shots than
> they probably should. It's hard to say - if they soak up enough shots
> that they die, they seem ineffective, yet if they weren't shot at, what
> would they do.

        My opponents were generally smart enough to not even
bother shooting at it (unless they were trying to strip cards,
in which case it's a good a target as any), because they know
it's not going to accomplish much of anything.

> (so no T-hawks, Thudd guns, etc. )

        No Thudd Guns?!? Are you mad!!! =)

> I used the dreadnoughts
> just because I thought they fit (but before you say it - yes, they
> sucked. All the Dreads sucked in SM/TL. That's one of the changes
> I'm happy about in E40K)

        The Chaos dreads sucked more than any other army's,
though. There's no reason at all to take them.

> > > I also happen to like the banelord,
> >
> > !!! more useless than the daemon engines, IMHO.
>
> ----> OK, I'll assume there's an explanation for that.

        There is - the Banelord sucks (simple, and to the
point).

        900 points for a short-ranged titan that can't use
FF orders. Generally gets to fire some missiles from its
rack and then gets blown to smithereens with minimal shooting
(once those void shields are gone, it doesn't take much to
knock through the crappy armor on that front reactor location).
Advance orders suck, and it's not fast enough to really catch
anything in CC. And the amazingly high price tag means that
in a normal battle, you can't take any other titans to give
some much needed fire support.

        Chaos already has bunches of nasty short-ranged
weapons and machines that are good in CC. It doesn't need
to pay 900 points for a fragile titan that already covers
those bases.

> (My view - more stuff than a regular warlord

        How so? It's got 5 weapons but any warlord titan
can have 5 weapons. Some of the Banelord weapons are
superior to the standard issue equivalents (doomfist), but
the other weapons are inferior (tail gun, the arm cannon).
So it all evens out.

> for the same price

        900 points vs. 500. Hmmmm...

> with the penalty of being on advance/charge only.

        It's major weakness. If I could charge it forward
and then go to FF orders, it might be useful if it wasn't
so expensive.

> Worth it
> to me...besides, it came out with a damn nice paint job,
> which matters at least as much as the game stats.

        Ehhh... I'm not going to lose a game just because
I've got a model with a nice paint job... My opponents were
equal/superior to me in ability, meaning that if I took any
inferior units I would almost definitely lose (unless they
also took crap in their army, but that wasn't likely).
Heck, I've got a tzeentch warlord titan that was a huge
conversion job (for me, anyway) and I love it a lot, but
I've never actually used it in a game of SM/TL because I
can't justify spending so many points on something that
isn't worth it.

> ----> I undertook an intensive study of the E40K Chaos list
> over the weekend, and I noticed a couple of things:
>
> 1) Slaanesh beast rders look to be a lot more effective
> in this version.

        Are you thinking of Fiends, maybe? Beast riders
are an upgrade, just like Juggers and Disc Riders.

> 2) Juggers are an upgrade but not a unit - I guess I'd
> call 'em a demon with cavalry and rampage. Anyone willing
> to buy "save" or "assault" ?
> 3) Same with Discs - upgrades but not units. What did we
> come up with? Demon - cavalry, skimmer?

        It's all on my e40k page, somewhere... ah! here
we go:

http://www.rpi.edu/~shupes/EPIC/E40K/post.mia.html#ChaosCalvary

> 4) Oh great. No marine speeders for chaos - I know why
> from the 40K Codex, I was just hoping they'd overlook
> it. Guess they get converted to blood angels...

        Or use them as chaos speeders, with the same
point values as the marine ones (with your opponent's
permission). Or, you could borrow a page from the 40k
Chaos Codex and just say any post-heresy equipment is
available but costs 50% more than normal marines pay.

> 5) What's up with those greater demons? Seem kinda
> weak to me "stubborn" for a KOS? "save" is OK,
> and psyker is OK, but couldn't they do better than that?

        GDs have suffered a huge downgrade in power. But
then, they are no longer the center of the army. The first
few times I played I got a shock when my GDs got picked off
by AT shots. "Oh yeah? Well, I'll just sacrifice a cha-
oh." And they are much cheaper now as well, so it's not
like they're overpriced or anything. It's just that, like
a lot of units, their relative power level has been
radically changed.

> I almost think treating them as some kind of War engine
> would be better...

        That's a little TOO much. WEs are huge machines
that aren't very maneuverable. Anything that was a Knight
in SM/TL (GDs, hive tyrants, slaanesh engines) didn't make
the WE cut.

Scott
shupes_at_...
Received on Mon Jul 28 1997 - 17:38:07 UTC

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